Author Topic: SSOP 7-12-03 (Read 4340 times)

B17Skull12 · « **Reply #45 on:** December 09, 2003, 06:36:09 PM »

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Originally posted by bike killa
Allways welcome to fly with 308

could you email me here plz:)

ramzey · « **Reply #46 on:** December 09, 2003, 09:59:08 PM »

amen brother lucull:cool:

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Originally posted by AndyH
History has proven (in SSO) that the CO who concentrates his forces generally wins. There has been a definite trend of COs only attacking one target, and winning the frame.

When you have a CO who tries to follow the rules (as Markal did) he gets beat due to his forces being spread out thinner than his opponent.

and noone tould him to walk on the edge of rules ;-)

Markal, no worry buddy next time will be better, every of us have "bad " day on SOPS

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Originally posted by skernsk
I am not totally 'qualified' to argue the points as I did not particpate in even one Sunday Squad-Op but I do know that ALL targets should be attacked ... it is a rule.

you are wrong in this , quote form objectives

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Your job is to destroy logistic supplies at a depot and hunt and destroy an Allied fleet belived to be operating in the marked area om the map.
NOTE: Anything mention in the above description is not a rule or be taken as a task objective. The above description is only included to add flavour to the scenario. All taskes, rules, special rules, and objectives are note below and take precedence over anything in the description.

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Frames are designed so the both sides will cross each other's path and the defenders will attack the oncoming planes. If a squadron is tasked to cap A1 and the CO decided not to attack it then you have 10-15 guys flying around for two hours doing nothing .. .where is the fun in that.

no is not, but is enforced by strategy, tactics and SA
Why somone whould send 3 or 4 people for death? when defence cap waiting for them ? Better is concentrate bigger force, take airsuperiority over first target, cut safe pass and retreat path. Return for rearm, judge resources and decide , do secound strike or not.

So here is moral choose.
Send somone for sure death or not?

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ALL frame CO's must understand that when they get a set of objectives they must attack ALL and must defend ALL. This may be why the Friday squads are not having as many issues. They all know this rule and follow it.

no, they have diferent numbers
Attacking one target is not against rules, beucose noone of CiC can predict how many strike poplanes will left for secound attack.
Usual secound attack IS in battle plan, but mostly is no planes left to do this.

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NUMBER OF OBJECTIVES

If I understand you correct ramzey you are saying intstead of 4 objectives (2 offensive and 2 defensive) to make it around 3. In my opinion it is better to have the numbers thinned out by adding another objective. Being used to a larger number .. we try for around 5 or 6 objectives. That is roughly 15-20 players per objective per side. It makes for some intense fighting.

Thanks for the reply ... [/B]

15-20 players for objective is ok, but its half of side forces.
Count with me please, that 4 objectives per frame , usual we have around 30 players per side.
its 7-8 players per objective. thats mean 2 defence fighters cap (around 15 pilots)
2 strike groups 2x 7 (or )

each strike group should have strike planes + fighter cover
tell me now please how to split forces inside strike group to give them chance to come back? if somwher ther waiting 7 fighters ready to kill them.

no offence , im just courious, when do you last time lead frame in squad operiations?

skernsk · « **Reply #47 on:** December 09, 2003, 10:36:13 PM »

Sorry ramzzey. I was thinking that SSO had 60 per side therefore 4 objectives would be 15 pilots per objective.

As for leading a frame ... no I never have. I have seen dozens of orders from frame CO's if that counts.

ramzey · « **Reply #48 on:** December 09, 2003, 10:57:25 PM »

so you see, numbers must determinate design

Friday design is good and work for 200+
Sunday design is the same but wont work for 60 players ( both side)

No is not ;-) before i start leading SOPS i read lots of orders too
but is not help when you must decide about others

CIC have choices

1. Follow objectives for all cost and loose (rhats mean his troops will be sloughtered)
2. Walk on the edge with rules and win ( fun for one side)
3. Let all fly, have fun and dont care about objectives (fun for one side)

so what you will choice?

Design CM assign planes whichone MUST be used ( in number of 4 , usual). What CIC should tell to guys flying ju87 ? or unescorted and poor bombers?

well CiC duty is not so easy

ramzey · « **Reply #49 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:01:13 PM »

btw if we talk about expirience

how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?

jordi · « **Reply #50 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:32:14 PM »

Don't forget us FSO CO's !

I have done my fair share !

Just saying ( tm Pasha )

B17Skull12 · « **Reply #51 on:** December 09, 2003, 11:33:54 PM »

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Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience

how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?

Yeah i was very eager to CiC when i was in SSO. Was fun to. i woukd have done it again but my squad just disappeared on me.

ramzey · « **Reply #52 on:** December 10, 2003, 12:02:40 AM »

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Originally posted by jordi
Don't forget us FSO CO's !

I have done my fair share !

Just saying ( tm Pasha )

Jordi we have problems with Sunday not Friday SO ;-)

jordi · « **Reply #53 on:** December 10, 2003, 12:13:39 AM »

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Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience

how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?

To me it seems the EXPERIENCED CIC's from Sunday should be helping out the NEW CIC's.

If a NEW CIC makes a plan that does not seem to "WORK" the experienced CIC's should help out even if it is a "Subtle" Suggestion to the CIC.

You can not just say, as an EXPERIENCED CIC , I will just go with plan no matter how flawed it may be without speaking up either in an email or on the forums.

Just my 2 cents worth at least.

bikekil · « **Reply #54 on:** December 10, 2003, 02:40:57 AM »

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Originally posted by ramzey
btw if we talk about expirience

how many of peoples writing her was CIC on SOPS last year?
AndyH, Lucull, Viff, me, skull as i remember, wipass?

Ramzey, correct me if i'm wrong

You are asking but are you trying to say that guys who weren't a side CO's in Sunday SOps shouldn't post here? Or their opinion can not be a right one? Or the "friday" guys shouldn't post because they are not flying/commanding on Sundays? Can my vote count as i was a CIC in a SOps many times (TOD actiually) in the past?

You are right, we have a problem with Sunday event, however identical event is running on Friday and is popular and running without any major problems as i believe... so a word from a Friday SOPs CIC is more then worth to read. I'm not sure what was your intention there but imo every vote can be hlepfull.

I believe that your intention was not to say to anyone something like "my opinion is worth more then yours" but you had a reason to post that question for sure...

Just a question

I'm a CM but nowdays i'm NOT involved in designing SOps (just to keep it clear for you).

What was the reason of my post? It's simple

We (as a people involved in the SSOps) should help CM's to make it better.
Everyone ius welcome to help - a regular pilot, squadron leader, CIC and also a Friday SOPs[/b] pilot or whoever you name

Just everyone who have something to say, something constructive, so the CM (noone else, because CM's are responsible for design) can take whatever he feel is valuable and use it, make the event better

then again, no matter who said what. If it's helpfull, it's just great.

Ramzey, please excuse me if i got your intentions wrong (i'm just not sure what was your reason to ask).

Finally i do think that people approach for the Friday and Sunday SOPs is different.. .and that is also what makes the events different. That's what i think anyway.

Suave · « **Reply #55 on:** December 10, 2003, 07:57:17 AM »

Admin CM should allways review the CO's plans and OK them before they are sent out. Yes this is micromanagement to an extent, but if a frame sucks even if it was the COs fault, ultimately who's responsibility is it?

More than two objectives per side is too many for 60 participants.

In my experience a lot of sqops players don't know how to bomb, don't want to learn, and generally view being assigned to buffs as a negative thing. Are there any bomber squads that play sqops ?

lucull · « **Reply #56 on:** December 10, 2003, 10:06:58 AM »

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You are asking but are you trying to say that guys who weren't a side CO's in Sunday SOps shouldn't post here? Or their opinion can not be a right one? Or the "friday" guys shouldn't post because they are not flying/commanding on Sundays? Can my vote count as i was a CIC in a SOps many times (TOD actiually) in the past?

No need to be polemic here.

Certainly you are wrong. The problem is the difference between, things written on papers (or unwritten things taken as common rules) and the reality in being CiC and the ability to follow CM objectives.

In theory, I agree with skernsk and with things Jordi has said to some points, but in reality things look different and the problem is, that you can only see those dilemmas a CiC has when making orders, when you are in his role or you listen carefully to people who played that role.
And that is the point, why we should listen carefully to people who have been CiC, cause they are the ones who can judge the situation the best. That means automatically, that it's highly recommended to relativate the point of views from people that come from "outside", cause their possibilities to judge the situation are by default limited.
(note: sometimes it is recommended to listen more to people from "outside", but IMO not here)

The said above proves IMO why this is wrong:

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You are right, we have a problem with Sunday event, however identical event is running on Friday and is popular and running without any major problems as i believe... so a word from a Friday SOPs CIC is more then worth to read. I'm not sure what was your intention there but imo every vote can be hlepfull.

Supported by suave's conclusion:

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More than two objectives per side is too many for 60 participants.

I go even further and would say, that you simply can't adjust a design which works for 200 players by reducing the objectives for 60 players following the directive of 15-20 players per objective.
Reason is, that when you give each side one obejective to defend and one to attack, is boring. IMO you have to assign one side to attack only and one to defend and keep in mind that the attacker needs higher numbers than the defender (bombers/jabo/fighter vs. fighter balancing problem) and also give the defender more objectives.

My personal conclusion is, that there is no elementary difference between Friday and Sunday SO, but there is a difference in numbers, which makes it essential to use different design and not only adjusting existing design, which work for higher numbers.

At this point I recommend to read the last SSO series setup and the comments to it on the forum.

With that knowledge, you will easily see, what I wanted to tell with the above.

bikekil · « **Reply #57 on:** December 10, 2003, 11:15:40 AM »

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Originally posted by lucull
The said above proves IMO why this is wrong:

IMO (and under my and your definition my vote still counts as i was a CIC many times in the past

)
what you said above is very wrong. i still welcome your posts here no matter that you are not that expirienced in leading a side of that event as i am

I believe after that sentence you understand what i'm talking about

< under your definition of worth, based on expirience in leading a frame my vote should be worth more then yours what is totally wrong and funny >

But once we back to the real problem. Of course Sauve is right that a responsibility about a total look of everything is on the CM side of stuff. CM's are responsible for designing it, assigning roles and so on... however (i'm not talking about this particular frame) as a CM who designd some TOD's in the past i have to say that sometimes CM's CAN NOT controll CIC's orders... believe me - been there, done that... CIC's are late with sending his stuff to CM's or not sending it at all. Sometimes i've asked for it 2-3 times and havn't got a thing.
Of course, a lesson have to be learned from it by a CM regarding this exact person who failed... but everyone with a brain knows whos really guilty there, nometter who we call guilty oficially.
Then IF a CM won't learn his lesson from this, next time he is the only one who's guilty - no question. (that's my opinion anyway.. and believe me i like not may of people who posted here i was on both end of this).

Also i agree that 4 objectives for 60 pilots ( + deffensive objectives ) is too much. I hope the lesson will be learned.

Yes, many pilots don't know how to bomb or divebomb, but then SOps are event that are meant for the squads and squads CAN learn things duting the training meetings. It should be taken into consderation but.... if theu don't knoiw how to divebomb they should practice, not whine about the assigment.
If you are assigned to a buff 2 times in a row - that sucks, but that's the life... if on another 3 frame you are on a buff 2 times you are allowed to whine loud and believe me someone should pay for this

Finally there is a big factor that some of you are not willing to see - people have a different approach here and there. sad but very true.

lucull · « **Reply #58 on:** December 10, 2003, 12:16:24 PM »

You missunderstand me bike... again.

We are not talking about, if anybody is not welcome to post here (certainly everybody can post in a public forum) or who is, but about the weight of the posters view. Secondly this is about being CiC in a definated situation depending on numbers and orders (4 objectives for 4 players).

There is a difference between being CiC and assigning 15-20 per objective (following skernsk's numbers), reading about CiCs assigning 7-8 people per objective and being the CiC who had/has this dilemma.

Note: you were CM and CiC when Sunday ToD had 100+ players over a year ago. Things have changed meanwhile and therefor your don't count (for me) into the last group.

I think the right eyes of the right people have been opened in this thread. It's not that easy to plan a fun event and as far as I did read this thread, it was never about who should be blamed, but about how to change things to make the event more fun.
If I judge it by this, it was a very productive thread (use of forum, COs placing their complaints, setup design, ...).

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i still welcome your posts here no matter that you are not that expirienced in leading a side of that event as i am

Please leave the polemic at the front door.

daddog · « **Reply #59 on:** December 10, 2003, 02:04:29 PM »

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Reason is, that when you give each side one obejective to defend and one to attack, is boring.

You just described the Snapshots every week. Not boring to the 50 or so who fly in them every week.

Certainly there are significant differences between the events, but if the Sunday Squad Ops only had 2 squads I would set one to defend and one to attack. If the Sunday Squad Ops had 4 squads I would do the same. The inherent design with considerations for numbers and squad sizes works for 80 players or 800 players. Numbers will certainly dictate how many objectives each side has so with more players you will have more objectives.

Most of you know I designed these things. The first three were ran by myself and ghosth as Setup CM about 3 years ago. We had 80 to 100 players each time. Each side had 2 to 3 targets to attack or defend. From there it grew to over 200 so something was working and working well.

The problems Sunday Squad Operations has had over the last couple of years would constitute a long list. Blame can be placed on both players and CM’s. I have had issue with some of the designs and no doubt some Frame C.O.’s have not done their job well, but the SSO is on the road to recovery IMHO. If your a Frame C.O. and not following the steps in this thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=96219
your taking a chance of your squad being removed from SSO.

There is a chance I might be moving to Sunday’s as an Admin CM. If that is the case I will run them as I did when I first started the TOD’s/Squad Operations.