Author Topic: I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.  (Read 5905 times)

Offline Furious

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3243
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #30 on: December 14, 2003, 06:49:05 PM »
I think the best solution, as previously stated, is better base defenses.

Increase the number of AA (like double or triple) and harden them.  Put them behind sandbags, in ditches, whatever.

There also needs to be mannable AT weapons at the fields.

Offline Hornet

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 469
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #31 on: December 14, 2003, 08:26:58 PM »
if you want to go with better defenses, the easiest change is to make acks no-straffable.
Hornet

Offline Arlo

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24760
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #32 on: December 14, 2003, 08:46:50 PM »
Just the little AI troops manning it. Oh wait .... damn.

Offline Pongo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6701
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #33 on: December 14, 2003, 11:02:39 PM »
Hide the strat stuff in the forest under the eaves...

Offline Ecliptik

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 515
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2003, 11:21:52 PM »
Considerably better base defenses are a good idea for a number of reasons.  First, it's probably more historically accurate.  From what I've read, coming in low over a sizeable enemy airfield was often almost sure death.  There are a few stories of groups of a dozen planes going in low to attack an airfield, and only two planes emerging alive on the other side.  Second, it would make capturing a field from the air a more difficult endevour requiring a little more coordination than your average stream of suicide porkers.  Third, it would make assault from the ground a more attractive choice, which is cool for GV people, and people who like to hunt them.  (Generally these people are attack pilots who are -not- suicide porkers).

Offline Delirium

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7276
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2003, 02:58:22 AM »
I would also like to see the ack defenses much more accurate up until the ground radar at that field has been destroyed. It would help in the 'feel' a little.

It would be a bonus if you could hear the tone in your headphones informing you that you've been targeted by the drone guns.
Delirium
80th "Headhunters"
Retired AH Trainer (but still teach the P38 selectively)

I found an air leak in my inflatable sheep and plugged the hole! Honest!

Offline GScholz

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8910
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2003, 03:28:27 AM »
Don't you guys realize that increasing the defences will only encourage suicidedweebery? The more difficult it is to take out a target and survive, the more guys won't care if they survive. Why take the time to "do it right" when you are likely to die anyway and the effect of your attack is probably little if any? Why do you think people started suicidedweebery? Why do you think the Japanese used the Kamikaze? They were as good as dead anyway, but at least they could increase their chance of hitting something. The only way of "controlling" behaviour is doing just that ... CONTROLLING behaviour. HTC needs to lay down the rules on what is not acceptable behaviour in AH. If enough complaints are logged (with film) the individual is banned, temporarily or permanently.
"With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably."

Offline _Schadenfreude_

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2036
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2003, 06:01:32 AM »
In FA - a long time ago and in another land - if you got shot down before your bombs exploded then they were automatically defused and harmless - you could also set a time on them so they'd explode after 5 secs, 10 secs whatever - great fun screaming over a runway - dropping your eggs then watch them explode 10 secs later when everyone thinks it's clear and are respawning!

Offline BlkKnit

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2090
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2003, 06:36:55 AM »
The idea has merit, but it seems to me it will only promote an even greater horde mentality.

Once a Knight is Never Enough

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2003, 08:26:55 AM »
Gscholz is right - I sincerely agree.


 There are a few reasons to suicidal mentality, and weak field defenses is just one of them only. Strengthen the field defense, and we will just see more people going into kamikaze attacks. Instead of strengthening field defenses, we should rather seek ways to weaken the effectiveness of kamikaze runs.


 One solution, is to give back the dedicated ground attack planes their roles:

 A single P-47D-30 carries 5000lbs of ordnance in AH(2x1000lbs + 10xHVAR(250lbs each) + 1x500lbs). A single P-51D carries 3500lbs, P-38L 4000lbs, F4U-1D 3500lbs. The Typhoon, carries 2000lbs, but is also the fastest non-perked fighter of the set.

 These planes, in the hands of a good pilot, can knock down 1 major field structure(hangar), and 3~4 more minor structures.

 That's not a problem since there aren't many good pilots around.  But the problem is, their incredible armament option, (usually) fast speed, and potent fighter capabilities, also allows a bad pilot to take out 1 major structure, or various minor structues, before getting caught or augering to the ground.

 While it is not strange to see late war planes which evolved into a multi-task fighter doing multi-task roles, in terms of planeset/gameplay, it encourages suicidal mentality and lopsided plane usage - because one or two deaths(even if not intended), will get your job done. Gather three~four people thinking the same, and you get a force of power that can shut down a small aifield in its totality,

 Personally, I prefer the perk method. But whatever else method there can be out there, the point is in either limiting the usage of those late war planes, or limiting the usage of particular ordnance options, so the player behind the stick would have to pay(in one way or another) and feel the bitterness of death.

 The goal we must seek, is to limit air to ground effectivity. If somehow the usage of those late war planes(at least in the attack role) can be limited, the alternative, perk-free(limit-free) A2G attack planes with decent loadouts will naturally be the less capable planes such as Mosquitos, 110s, 190F-8s, Il-2s and etc.

 This serves us with some positive effects:

1) Since the perk-free(or whatever type of limit-free) A2G planes with decent loadouts are less capable, they will be easier to intercept.

2) Being easier to intercept means, they won't belike P-51Ds or Typhoons just ignoring all interceptors and going straight towards the field, shouting "Banzai!". They will get caught.

3) That means the rate of successfully achieving mission goal(whether he survives the mission or not), will ultimately be lowered.

4) To do successful attack runs, proper steps and precautions will need to be taken:

 If they choose to come in with altitude to ensure penetration to target field, the interval of punitive suicidal strikes will naturally become longer(ever try taking a fully loaded Mossie to 20k?).

 If they come in low, they will be easily caught before reaching the field.

 To be successful in those slower, lumbering attack planes, it would actually require some skill in situational awareness - how the airpath may be open, how friendly air cover clears the skies for a needed time.

5) Since they are hardly competitive as close-range fighters, jabos such as Mossies or 110s are relatively easy prey(although there are some good pilots in those planes).

 Unlike the P-38s or P-51s dropping ord, and immediately switching to CAP role with great success, the dedicated attack fighters will probably become the first of prey to fall, against normal field defenses, organized defenses, and counter attacks. This means, even if suicidal hits continuously pound a base, the remaining field CAP/vulch strengths of the attacking side is greatly weakened.

6) Since the dedicated jabos, actually carry less bomb loads than compared to the late war USAAF fighters, it will take more of them to swiftly and decisively knock out major field structures before they respawn. Unless one side has uncountable numbers advantage, when two sides (of simular force) operate in the same sector, more piloys allocated to jabo duty means weaker fighter power. A balance between fighter power and jabo power will be required, since if the late war monster planes are somehow limited, the role of planes will distinctively diverge between the fighter role and the attack role.

7) If they choose to do what they used to do - dropping ord, and if they luckily survive the attack run, switch to fighter duty - they will have to do it in the limit-less planes. Most fighters outside those normally used for jabo currently, carry a single 1000lbs, or 500lbs bomb, with maybe a couple of rockets. The P-47D-25 has to armo the bazooka pods for rocket power, and most other planes can rarely carry more than 1500~2000lbs.

 In any case, the effectivity of suicidal runs are limited, the roles between planes can diverge, and people will face the need to balance numbers between jabos and fighters, operating in the target sector.

 Or, if they think that's too harsh for them, they'll give up the jabo role entirely, which means fighters will come in strafing fields - it will kill the fuels, yes, but it will need a lot of numbers advantage to suppress a field. Also, if they want to capture the field, they're not gonna do it any time quick by just strafing the town buildings(we all know how people hate to leave the vulch scene, don't we?)

 So if one side has enough local numbers advantage, they will probably do the same thing without bombs - come in kamikaze, strafing the field.

 However, if the numbers are matched, they won't just slip past defenses and go kill every fuel or every hangar, or every barracks or every ammo bunker with just two, three planes.

ps1) Better yet, if the field objects accompany some changes along with the above suggestion:

(a) The most important of all resources(fuel), is placed within armoured bunkers or depots requiring a couple of thousand pounds to kill.. maybe 50% of fuels in armoured bunkers, and rest 50% in normal drums..?

(b) Some objects, such as town buildings(which are probably made of wood, stone, or concrete) are impervious to machine gun/cannon fire under 30mm. Town buildings, armoured bunkers, vehicle hangar, shore batteries come into mind.

 If those two changes are implemented alongside above suggestion, then I guarantee the suicidal madness will be a thing of the past. Jabo role, and I mean an effective, good jabo role, that almost instantly renders a field defenseless, fuel-less, GV-less, and town-down for capture, will be considered a thing for trained jabo specialists and good bomber pilots, as much as a2a combat needs skill.

 Oh sure, nobody's gonna stop you or punish you from doing what you like to do. Except you won't make a dent to the defenders if you don't do it right.

 ...

ps2) For more thinking, please look up my NPA linked in the sig. More detailed discussions on diverse plane sets and limiting abusive kamikaze tactics by means of perking, is discussed there.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2003, 08:41:09 AM by Kweassa »

Offline Zanth

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1052
      • http://www.a-26legacy.org/photo.htm
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2003, 08:35:22 AM »
Add more potent manned guns of the CV/Cruiser variety at airfields.

And as a side note: In AH2 the guns are pretty much impossible to kill already (you can't see them)

Offline kappa

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1330
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2003, 09:04:14 AM »
I remember the days in AW when base defenses were turned up..  As stated previously the idea of a one ping death at 12k agl over a enemy base was very possible. 88mm in AH now I feel is one of the worst aspects of the game.. To be far removed from a fight and die from a 1 ping 'AI' hit is, well, bs.... IMO making AI defenses stronger, more accurate, more deadly would be a poor mistake. We play this game to play other folks... Not the computer... Randomization is BS........

The strat key seems to be to be as simple as increasing the fuel/ammo hardness... Maybe more fuel dumps..  Increase the fuel hardness 4x and there will still be fuel porkage as there should be.. Its part of the game..  Simply, that fuel porkage wont be the alone 'deciding' factor of play in that particular area..  If fuel hardness is turned up, in the absense of organization, it would take 1-2 individuals 4x the trips to take out the fuel.. thereby giving fuel time to respawn.. seems like a cycle that could be contained... Maybe even turn down fuel respawn times..

Players will not change... The field ack isnt broken... Adjust the fuel bunkers first....
- TWBYDHAS

Offline mold

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 305
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #42 on: December 15, 2003, 09:09:06 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Your in on a town with your P-38 ...

You let 2 1000 pounders go to take out the last remaining buildings.

T -1:00 minute



OK that's true, I see that this scenario is more common. :)  But still, I think the time parameter can be adjusted to distinguish between this scenario and the porkers.  Now that you bring this up, 1 minute does seem like an awfully long time.  But perhaps 15 seconds or so?  I believe you can come up with a timeframe sufficiently large that the incentive to plan for suicide attacks is reduced, but sufficiently small that you aren't miles away when building reappear.

Offline mold

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 305
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2003, 09:17:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
Don't you guys realize that increasing the defences will only encourage suicidedweebery? The more difficult it is to take out a target and survive, the more guys won't care if they survive. Why take the time to "do it right" when you are likely to die anyway and the effect of your attack is probably little if any? Why do you think people started suicidedweebery? Why do you think the Japanese used the Kamikaze? They were as good as dead anyway, but at least they could increase their chance of hitting something.


This is a VERY good point which had not occurred to me, and I find myself in agreement with you.


Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
The only way of "controlling" behaviour is doing just that ... CONTROLLING behaviour. HTC needs to lay down the rules on what is not acceptable behaviour in AH. If enough complaints are logged (with film) the individual is banned, temporarily or permanently.


Well, yeah, ideally if you die you suffer realistic consequences, like you get booted from the game, your account is closed, and you are consigned to an AH-less hell.  :D But I don't think HTC is gonna go for that.

Offline mold

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 305
I want to WHINE about suicide dweebs. Please read my PATHETIC post.
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2003, 10:00:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
If those two changes are implemented alongside above suggestion, then I guarantee the suicidal madness will be a thing of the past. Jabo role, and I mean an effective, good jabo role, that almost instantly renders a field defenseless, fuel-less, GV-less, and town-down for capture, will be considered a thing for trained jabo specialists and good bomber pilots, as much as a2a combat needs skill.


Wow.  First of all, thanks for that very well though-out post.  I see that I was missing a few points on the analysis of the effects of perking ord.  In particular, the idea of perking ord on late war monsters only seems like a very good idea!  In fact, I think that this even deals with the issue of guys wanting to do it just for teamwork's sake.  Basically, instead of forcing the issue like I'm suggesting, make it harder to take a base through suicides without making the base grabbing inherently harder for honest stratters.  I like it.

Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
For more thinking, please look up my NPA linked in the sig. More detailed discussions on diverse plane sets and limiting abusive kamikaze tactics by means of perking, is discussed there.


I will certainly do that, thanks for the link.