Author Topic: Question Regarding Political Philosophy  (Read 1633 times)

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2003, 10:49:28 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
In my word any number of people can band together to own and manage common property on any principles they choose - democratic one-man-one-vote, shareholding, or entrust it to a leader.


One comment on this...

I think that is what exists in any country where freedom to exit the country is guranteed.

In the US, we as a people have banded together to manage common property based on our own principles (the US Constitution).

Just for argument sake, consider this Miko...the government is not extorting anything from you.  You freely choose to join the society called the USA (a group of 300 million people banded together to manage common property based on our principles).  By freely joining, you have made a value judgement that the benefits of living in the USA outweigh the costs of conforming to the management decisions of the group.

I personally hate that argument...primarily because I know that it is true.  I can choose to leave and hope to find a society that more closely conforms to my own desires.  So far the location of Galt's Gulch eludes me.  However, I've made the choice to forgo leaving because of the benefits that I do enjoy in the US.

Offline Montezuma

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2003, 01:27:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
 As for market failure, under free market there will always be failures bacause loss is just the other side of the profit - an informational process that transfers ownership to entrepreneurs who correctly predict public needs.


Do you think the invisible hand is working in markets controlled by monopolies or cartels?

Offline Munkii

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2003, 11:33:47 PM »
Wow, I enjoy a few nights of fun after finals, come back and this thing has gotten complicated.  I'm really enjoying the lesson in economics here, but I have one question, is human nature being figured into all of this?  I see all these theroies and things, but don't see much in the way of the effects of greed, jealousy, and laziness worked in?  Laziness would take care of itself I'm assuming, but what about greed and jealousy?  What would greed and jealousy do to the free market?  Couldn't it in theory, cause people to be bought off, and eventually turn into the corrupt society most of the world enjoys now?

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2003, 12:38:55 AM »
"Greed -- for lack of a better word -- is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms -- greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind. And Greed -- you mark my words -- will not only save Teldar Paper but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA."
--Gordon Gecko

:aok

Munkii...economics is nothing more than the study of the behavior and psychology of buying and selling.  Economics is the study of human nature.

Laziness, or the problem of the free rider, is a potential major issue with any anarchistic society.  It is unlikely to "work out".  Each individual being allowed to behave in their best interest only leads to an opportunity for some costs to not be borne by their producer.  Many anarchists believe that everyone will play nice and not cheat in a pure "free market" out of some altruistic value system...unfortunately, this is not the case.  One of the biggest proponents of a pure "free market" was Ayn Rand (you should pick up one of her books...many like The Fountinehead best, but I prefer Atlas Shrugged).  She wrote many books and essays on the "virtue of selfishness".  In a pure "free market" society, altruism is for those who are willing to lose assets.

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2003, 08:10:57 PM »
first, I have to applogise for long periods of silence which will probably get worse for a while. My second baby is 4 weeks old and the concept of day and night ceased to be meaningless to me.
 That's probably a worst time to get into complex discussion. I'd love to write a serious essay on nutrition as well as on the errors of J M Keynes and a few more fundamental issues - and some day I probably will.

 crowMAW: I am arguing that a legitimate role for government is to reduce transaction costs. You've given examples where government has exceeded that legitimate role.

 There is a legitimate disctinction. But lowering transaction costs has costs as well - costs that have to be coercively confiscated from private projects. The government cannot make an economic calculation to check whether the benefits exceed costs - or even if the benefits exceed drawbacks.
 There may be plenty people who would not want that lighthouse if it was free.
 The nice rural retreat estate may lose it's value when a port city pops up next ot once-treacherous waters, followed by uncouth sailors, prostitutes, longshoremen unions and finally black death imported along with exotic goods...

You said that transaction costs should not be considered externalities. I gave you a clear example of where they can be.

 Either I do not entirely understand you or I am out of my depth on the issue of externalities, so let's table this question.

Congratulations for realizing that there is at least one legitimate role for government.

 Well, I was using the terms loosely - I ment "the accreditation/sertification institution". One could call it a "government" or a "governing body", but without power of coercion it would hardly be considered a Government. The Underwriting Laboratories, Orthodox Union or Consumer Union would be surprised if anyone called them "government".

The hard question now Miko is for you to define a complete list of the legitimate roles that government should play. We'll make a minarchist of you yet.

 :) Protection of private property and persons from aggression and enforcement of contracts of course.
 I do provisionally classify myself as a minarchist - there seem to be no consensus whether a minarchist government is possible without it growing into totalitarian state or devolving into anarcho-capitalist society.

I think you are making a pretty big leap by thinking that my arguments for a government that can legitimately act as an enabler of reduced transaction costs is also an argument for a government that has a draft!

 Once you give the monopoly on violence to someone and a loosely defined mandate, you may not be able to control where it ends up.
 The curent woes of this country are apparently based on misreading of the "welfare" and "interstate commerce". "Reducing transaction costs" is an even fuzzier goal. A ruler could justify putting all the Earth under his rule and instituting a severe eugenics program as such.

I am arguing that the concept of a government sponsored postal service to ensure equal access helps reduce transaction costs and is therefore a legitimate function of government.

 I am arguing the opposite. The government provision of roads, communications and natural disaster relief to some people at the cost of other people induces people to settle where they would not settle under the free market. everybody's transaction costs are rising.
 Ever watched the documentary on the history of New York City? the government destroyed neighbourhoods, built roads and subcidised mortgages for suburban houses at the expense of taxpayers. So obviously more people settled in suburbs than would otherwise - while living in the cities was the natural cost-reducing trend.

That is a pretty big assumption. Would you ever consider buying a house where you don't actually own the land under it...you own the structure, but not the land.

 As I've said - I can envision a scenario but it was too complex to describe here. I can imagine a combination of contract terms and price that would make sense or a buyer.

But to your example...are you suggesting that in a pure "free market" that a land purchaser would have to negotiate a perpetual access contract with every road owner to which that property's driveway connects it to any destination within the road network?

 No, only to his local road, with understanding that it has such a contract with a higher-level road, etc. Kind of like internet.

Each transition would require a toll to be paid to the owner. Suddenly what was a 5-6 hour trip is now increased dependent on the number of toll booths the individual owners decide to build.

 What a coincidence, here is a yesterday's article that can spare me some typing Abolishing Government Improves the Roads

If I am the only person that can read, then the utility for anything requiring reading is nearly nill.

 Err... Many societies had high degrees of literacy without goverment programs. As well the telephone and other comminications arose on a free market and then got hijacket by governments.
 Imagine, you are living your life prety happy and content, then someone comes up with a marketable invention - that improves lifes and makes stuff cheaper and better without coercion. All of a sudden a thug shows up on your door saying that you must fork over some money becasue the life has improved. Kind of silly, isn't it? If the invention was so good for you, you would have no problem borrowing money to aquire it. It would be a wise move for you and the investor and woudl not require coersion.

 He doesn't just use the term...he describes the concept specifically as it relates to air pollution. Air pollution specifically, and pollution or enviornmental impacts to development in general have always been one of the most pernicious problems for anarchists to resolve.

 I guess on obviously negative emissions where individual action was unfeasable, some common definition of acceptable pollution levels could have been adopted by society and enforced at the source. I do not see how it would conflict with a minarchist state's protection of property mandate.

 What in an anarchist society would resolve this situation?

 They could prove the pollution comes from your ground water, but I see your point.
 Many situations can arise that do not require actual harm but just the risk of such - fire hazard, nuclear accident, etc., so some kind of inspection and compliance with some kind of standard would be worked out.
 I imagine anarchists would want no government but knowing that a major disaster would change people's minds enough to bring in a big government, everybody would be interested in a reasonable compromise.

crowMAW: In the US, we as a people have banded together to manage common property based on our own principles (the US Constitution).

 The Constitition was opposed by many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, did not represent all the people and those whom it represented are all dead. Some founding fathers suggested re-adopting a constitution at least once per generation, I do not remember which.

consider this Miko...the government is not extorting anything from you. You freely choose to join the society called the USA. By freely joining, you have made a value judgement that the benefits of living in the USA outweigh the costs of conforming to the management decisions of the group.

 I am aware of that - and I believe I made a good choice at the time. But it hardly matters to a theoretical discussion. People are known to prefer one master to another, but that does not make them free.

 Anyway, if the USA is the country with most liberty, for all its flaws, that's all the more reasons to preserve it that way or even reverse the downfall.


Montezuma: Do you think the invisible hand is working in markets controlled by monopolies or cartels?

 Yes. Natural monopolies and cartels are unstable and short-lived. The "monopolies and cartels" that we hear about that were all created and maintained through the power of government - including local utilities.
 Same as the business cycle that was blamed on the market but is really the product of state-sanctioned fractional reserve system.

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2003, 08:12:35 PM »
Munkii: but I have one question, is human nature being figured into all of this? I see all these theroies and things, but don't see much in the way of the effects of greed, jealousy, and laziness worked in?

 Absolutely. The premise is that people make choices and act to change their sircumstances for those they perceive as more desirable. So all people are presumed to act selfishly.
“It is not from the be-nevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard totheir own interest.”– Adam Smith[/i]

 Obviously some people may engage in violence and theft but that would still be as illegal.

 The only way to aquire wealth/power is by providing people with goods/services that they value more than what they give in return. We can be sure that for every dollar Bill Gates got, the customer received something that he valued more than that dollar.
 That would be the only way - economic, non-coercive way.
 There would not be a political way where a person could aquire political power and coerce other people in surrendering their property or lives.


crowMAW: Munkii...economics is nothing more than the study of the behavior and psychology of buying and selling. Economics is the study of human nature.


 Not even close. The right economics is a study about means, not the ends.
 Economics assumes that people have ends and makes propositions on the best ways to achieve those ends.
 Why the ends are selected and how is left to other sciences, as well as the moral and ethical implications. Economics is a science that tells what is, not what aught to be or what we should want or why do we want something.

 For instance Mises distinguishes Praxeology - the science of human action, which applies in general, even to single people on uninhabited islands and Catallactics - the science concentrating on market exchange.

 Of course what the modern college courses call "economics" may be different - in may be an ungodly jumble of psychology, ethics and other stuff.

 miko

Offline Munkii

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2003, 09:21:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Of course what the modern college courses call "economics" may be different - in may be an ungodly jumble of psychology, ethics and other stuff.


I'll let you know in a few weeks.  I have Macro-Economics next semester, with a follow up summer course of Micro-Economics.  Infact my whole degree plan is at http://www.ou.edu/biz   if anyone has any suggestions on electives go ahead and post 'em :D

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #52 on: December 23, 2003, 09:19:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

I'd love to write a serious essay on nutrition

Nutrition??  :confused:   You will have me on that one for sure.  LOL

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
crowMAW: I am arguing that a legitimate role for government is to reduce transaction costs. You've given examples where government has exceeded that legitimate role.

There is a legitimate disctinction. But lowering transaction costs has costs as well - costs that have to be coercively confiscated from private projects. The government cannot make an economic calculation to check whether the benefits exceed costs - or even if the benefits exceed drawbacks.

There may be plenty people who would not want that lighthouse if it was free.  The nice rural retreat estate may lose it's value when a port city pops up next ot once-treacherous waters,

I was wondering how long it would take you to bring Bastiat into this.

A government that moves without consideration and counsel on the cost-benefit of an expenditure is operating outside its legitimate role.  

In the above example, I cannot think of a project (public or private) of the magnitude of a port that would not have included several opportunities for adjacent land owners to provide input on the impact they feel they would endure.

BUT, in a pure "free market" society, why would the adjacent land owners have the right to object to the development of a port anyway?  So long as there is no direct trespass on the landowners property, what the port brings should be of no consequence.  Plus, our good friend Coase would say...bring on the port!  The total cost to compensate the landowner's loss of property value and the building of the lighthouse would be negligible compared to the added utility of the port.

There are certainly examples where politicians have successfully brought home the bacon and had expenditures budgeted who's cost outweighed their benefit...and thank goodness for John  Stossel, CNN, 20/20, Dateline and TaxWatch to help us constituents identify these expenditures.  But for the most part, governments in the US create rather conservative criteria for the identification of projects ripe for expenditure.  Stop signs are placed where traffic warrants the expenditure...and stop signs are upgraded to traffic lights similarly.  If lighthouses were built without criteria for need, then you would see government sponsored lighthouses in Wyoming.

I am not arguing that roads should be built willy-nilly...there should not be roads that go nowhere with the thought of "if we build it they will come."  Roads connect communities.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Well, I was using the terms loosely - I ment "the
accreditation/sertification institution". One could call it a "government" or a "governing body", but without power of coercion it would hardly be considered a Government. The Underwriting Laboratories, Orthodox Union or Consumer Union would be surprised if anyone called them "government".

Unfortunately, without a coercive element of some kind, the enforcement of any standard is moot.  Whether that coercion is threat of pulling the UL label off of a product if it does not conform to the standards that UL sets...or if it is the threat of civil suits and possible jail for fraud if a US seller indicates his product weighs 1lb, but really only weighs 15oz.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Protection of private property and persons from aggression and enforcement of contracts of course.

To me "aggression" denotes intent...what is your definition.  To enforce contracts, would a government sponsored judicial system be used?

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d Once you give the monopoly on violence to someone and a loosely defined mandate, you may not be able to control where it ends up.

I definitely agree with that.  There is always the opportunity and incentive for any group to cheat others...including government.  I think that most people hope that the more participation that individuals have in government the more that threat is reduced.  

That may be a pipe dream, but at least there is the opportunity for individuals to control where it ends up.

The alternative is the wild west...which is great for individualists but hard on longevity.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
The government provision of roads, communications and natural disaster relief to some people at the cost of other people induces people to settle where they would not settle under the free market. everybody's transaction costs are rising.

Well, I agree as far as disaster relief.  Disaster relief is another example of individuals who refuse to internalize the costs of their decisions...in this case their decision to live in a risk area and not carry adequate insurance.

As far as communication is concerned...one type of transaction cost is search & information costs.  It is appropriate for government to foster an environment that reduces those costs.  However, there may be several alternatives as to how that is achieved.  In the case of the internet, there was direct investment from governmental agents (public universities and defense agencies).  In the absence of a comprehensive postal service separate from the British Crown, the colonies who would form the USA created a postal service.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Ever watched the documentary on the history of New York City?

If there was not a need for the roads, ie connecting two existing communities, then the goal was not to reduce transaction costs and was not a legitimate action.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

But to your example...are you suggesting that in a pure "free market" that a land purchaser would have to negotiate a perpetual access contract with every road owner to which that property's driveway connects it to any destination within the road network?


No, only to his local road, with understanding that it has such a contract with a higher-level road, etc. Kind of like internet.

That does not prohibit a non-local road owner from denying access.  Go back to my example regarding the two competing companies.  Each may have local access node to the road network, but that does not mean that a critical path along the network from one node to another cannot be denied.  Without guaranteed access to the critical path along the network, costs increase for moving from one node to another.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

Each transition would require a toll to be paid to the owner.


What a coincidence, here is a yesterday's article that can spare me some typing  

Interesting article.  Here is the mistake:

"remember that market firms, who must please customers to stay in business, provide everything better and less expensively than government"

This is incorrect as an absolute...and I can give you examples where government has provided a service more efficiently than a private contractor.  BUT, for this example of privatizing roadways...here are the problems that are glossed over in the article:

1. Costs for travelers on private roads would increase dramatically as they have to pay for the new electronic payment devices to be installed in the roads and in their cars.  Just as a guess, what do you think the cost per mile would be for the type of system he is suggesting?  Even if road owners used an EZ Pass style toll booth...you have substantial added costs by having to build and maintain those booths.  Under public management, the those unnecessary expenditures can be used to maintain the road.

2. He says that road owners would be held responsible in civil torts for the pollution emissions of vehicles using its road.  HA!  Road owners would simply argue that they were not the ones responsible for the pollution...rather it is the car owners who should be sued.  Further, he mentions inspection stickers...administrated by who and to what standard? Some states don't have inspections, so they cannot be piggy backed on that without increasing the cost to road users in those areas.  As the complexity increases, the costs increase.

3. He assumes that all costs for the road should be borne by the users.  A road network however provides benefits to those who may not directly use it. In reality, the fuel tax makes up a large portion of the funds used to build and maintain roads, but not all.  And those non-fuel tax generated general revenue funds used to build and maintain roads ensures that there are as few free riders as possible.

4. Lastly, this assumes that private roads cannot be built.  If it were truly a profitable enterprise then there would be a lot more private toll roads since there is nothing stopping them from being built.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Err... Many societies had high degrees of literacy without goverment programs.

I'd like to hear about them.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
I guess on obviously negative emissions where individual action was unfeasable, some common definition of acceptable pollution levels could have been adopted by society and enforced at the source. I do not see how it would conflict with a minarchist state's protection of property mandate.


I doesn't conflict with a minarchist state.  It does conflict with an anarchist state.  But this is my point...everything you have stated in your posts on the virtues of a pure "free market" society leads me to believe that you lean towards an anarchist society.  There is a need for government, and in its nature it must have some coercive power in order fund itself and to enforce the laws/regulations that the constituents who empower the government see fit to have legislated.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2003, 09:22:13 PM by crowMAW »

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #53 on: December 23, 2003, 09:21:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d

crowMAW: Munkii...economics is nothing more than the study of the behavior and psychology of buying and selling. Economics is the study of human nature.


Not even close. The right economics is a study about means, not the ends. Economics assumes that people have ends and makes propositions on the best ways to achieve those ends. Why the ends are selected and how is left to other sciences, as well as the moral and ethical implications. Economics is a science that tells what is, not what aught to be or what we should want or why do we want something.

For instance Mises distinguishes Praxeology - the science of human action, which applies in general, even to single people on uninhabited islands and Catallactics - the science concentrating on market exchange.

Of course what the modern college courses call "economics" may be different - in may be an ungodly jumble of psychology, ethics and other stuff.

I'm not sure what they teach now...I last taught college economics back in 1992.   The classic definition of economics is the study of resource allocation given scarcity...I always added to that text book definition by saying that it is the study of human behavior in an environment of resource scarcity.  Myself and many current economists believe that an understanding of why we behave the way we do in an environment of resource scarcity is as important as understanding the outcomes of those behaviors.

But, your comment is not consistent with the Austrian school and is more closely related to the Chicago Gang.  Not that I disagree with Uncle Miltie's ideas...econometrics is an excellent tool to help economists test correlative theories.  

Human emotions play a part in "what is"...sometimes the economic decisions humans make do not seem rational (a common assumption for econometric modeling), however I think that it is more the case that an appropriate value was not attributed to an emotion that played a role in the seemingly irrational decision and/or that there was imperfect information used in the decision making process.   Menger, the father of the Austrian school, realized that there was more to economics than the numbers when he re-discovered praxology (which means the study of human conduct) and began to apply it to economics.  Von Mises, Hayak, and Rothbard all used praxology in application to economics...they wanted to show that economic outcomes can be logically deduced based on human behavioral axioms.  They were trying to show that economics is not a science per se, in that it cannot be adequately mathematically modeled.

Some of the more recent work in the area has been done by Daniel Kahnenman and Amos Tversky...Kahnenman won the Nobel Prize for Economics last year for his work in behavioral finance.

Personally, I think that there needs to be a melding of the Austrian School's praxology and the Chicago Gang's econometrics in order to build a complete understanding of economics.  Sort of like having an understanding of both micro and macro...they are complementary not mutually exclusive. Oddly, it seems that proponents of the two schools like to argue that one is exclusively better than the other.

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #54 on: December 24, 2003, 11:50:33 AM »
crowMAW: I was wondering how long it would take you to bring Bastiat into this.
 A government that moves without consideration and counsel on the cost-benefit of an expenditure is operating outside its legitimate role.


 The government consisting of saints would not be able to do the cost-benefit analysis. That is why socialism is impossible, not because the rulers were corrupt or stupid.  Any decision of such government would have been arbitrary in economic sense.
 Only the market system of prices and profit and loss allows to perform economic calculation.


BUT, in a pure "free market" society, why would the adjacent land owners have the right to object to the development of a port anyway?

 In a free market society whatever problems they suffered would have been the result of the natural competition, without coercion. Someone would have outbid them for the land and resources because it woudl ahve been profitable. We would know that in total, the wealth of society woudl have increased.

 In your scenario, the owners would have their wealth confiscated as taxes in order to pay for something that would have hurt them and possibly not generated any net profit for society.

Unfortunately, without a coercive element of some kind, the enforcement of any standard is moot. Whether that coercion is threat of pulling the UL label off of a product if it does not conform to the standards that UL sets...or if it is the threat of civil suits and possible jail for fraud

 Competition. A new company's products would naturally be weighted, tested and avoided by some - unless they were certified by an established accreditation institution.
 An established company's repuration would so reduce it's transaction costs that it would be unprofitable to risk that reputation.
 It is no accident that the family-run businesses based on reputation are less prominent in our times. The misplaced trust in government oversight made reputation less of a competitive advantage.
 Pulling a label for non-compliance is not coersion.
 Civil suit is using the coersion of the state, but even in a stateless society fraud would not be widespread. People would just be more carefull around unknown vendors and there will be discounts untill the reputation is established.
 Plenty of products that are functional today are not as good as other products. It's up to the customer to decide the price/risk/quality tradeoff, not an arbitrary vote by some comittee.


 Check this article  You Do the Math . Here some excrepts:

Quote
If someone markets a $1,000 VCR that provides crappy picture and sound quality, and has no convenience features, nobody buys it, and the manufacturer stops making it. If someone were to advertise falsely about a given VCR’s quality and features, the market would notice it right away, and it would disappear. Stores like Circuit City, where you can operate products before buying them, already assure that manufacturers who make fraudulent claims don’t survive. Indeed, merely knowing that testing was possible would prevent most hard-core fraud perpetrators from even trying: Who would invest millions on a project he knows won’t succeed? Truth-in-advertising legislation is meant to combat fraudulent behavior, but such legislation and its enforcement are always a step behind the market. The market self-regulates just fine, more perfectly as it becomes freer. Heck, child-labor legislation didn’t come about until families were able to survive economically without using their children as employees, until the populace decided on its own that children should be occupied with tasks other than labor for profit. Legislation stayed a step behind the market, as always.

Who built roads in our earliest American settlements? Who provided electricity when we first became able to harness it? Who developed a medium of exchange that served also as a store of value (money)? The market, that’s who.

"The market" is you and me, buying and selling what we want. The market developed the original instances of everything: Communal defense, crime prevention, insurance, infrastructure – everything. The market works without supervision because every participant monitors every other participant. If you were to make a purchase in the Wild West in 1840, you would have inspected your goods carefully before tendering payment. When you tendered payment, the seller would inspect your money carefully. You would likely have paid in coin, and if it were gold, the merchant would actually bite it, just as in the old western movies, to make sure it was malleable and therefore genuine. While the seller was selling you the bag of flour, you were selling him your money. Whether you are acting as a buyer or seller (all of us not on welfare act as both), your actions are being inspected by the other party every time. When markets are free enough for us to do that – that is, we don’t have government-printed fiat money, we don’t have government inspection of beef – we are free to provide the ultimate enforcement of the requirement of trust, every time we act. The ultimate enforcement is non-participation – not buying the product. The merchant who sells inferior goods will starve.[/i]

While a corporate executive must please customers or lose his job, the government bureaucrat can get away with bilking customers for generations, and be rewarded with increased power and money. When a corporate project fails, people lose jobs because less money comes into the corporation. When a government program fails, the executives in charge simply tax you and me more.
 Consider: If a government program were to succeed, often this would mean the extinction of jobs for government employees. If we actually won the War on Drugs, every agent in the DEA would be out of work. Thousands of government jobs would be lost if we won the War on Poverty. I’ll give you three guesses as to whether, in any of our lifetimes, the government will announce that we have won either of these wars, or the War on Terrorism. Hundreds of thousands of government employees – the ones waging the wars – cannot allow us to win: They have families to support.


 Self-interest is creative when operating in a market competition environment, destructive otherwise.

 CONTINUED...

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #55 on: December 24, 2003, 11:51:09 AM »
To me "aggression" denotes intent...what is your definition. To enforce contracts, would a government sponsored judicial system be used?

 Someone violates/damages your property without your permission and is unwilling to compensate you for the damage - that's an agression, whether the original act was intentional or accidental. The government would help you collect restitution.
 Same with a contract violation.
 In case of intentional agression, the person would became an outlaw because any rights a person would have in such society would be granted in return for recognition of other's symmetric rights. His property and life (if he commited an agresssion against a person) would not be protected. Anyone, not just the government-designated enforcers, would be able to hunt him down.

The alternative is the wild west...which is great for individualists but hard on longevity.

 That's just propaganda. I saw the stats of the Wild West in comparison with modern crime stats.
 Outside the formal duels or duel-like engagements - where gunmen risked their lives voluntarily in confrontation with minimal danger to civilians - there was incredibly low rates of violent and other crime. Women would walk at night unmolested, murder and theft was practically unheard of.

That does not prohibit a non-local road owner from denying access. Go back to my example regarding the two competing companies.

 There are plenty of areas that are less accessible, that can lose access seasonally, etc. That is not the reason to build tunnels and bridges to them - only the reason for people not to settle there unless their provate benefit exceeds the cost of inconvenience and risk. The property values would reflect such accesibility and risk conditions.
 It does not matter of the owner can close the road or God can close the faucet so that no rain would fall for a few years. It's the same category of risk. A guaranteed access is a valuable economic good. An owner would enter into contractual obligation mandatory to the future owners for the market price of such obligation.
 We have such contracts right now - easments, title restrictions, etc.


and I can give you examples where government has provided a service more efficiently than a private contractor.

 I bet you can't - becasue there is no way for you or anyone short of God to econimically calculate all the side-effects and tradeoffs.

they have to pay for the new electronic payment devices to be installed in the roads and in their cars.

 But the roads would only be built where they make economic sense and not waste society's resources. Metered access would make the road utilisation more efficient, so more resources would be saved - and invested elsewhere. The human settlement patterns would not become less effective due to subcidised access. Huge savings right there.
 You would pay for a device on your car but you would not pay for a 70-miles long driveway for some rich man's estate on a picturesque remote corner of Long Island. Let him pay for it.
 
He says that road owners would be held responsible in civil torts for the pollution emissions of vehicles using its road. HA! Road owners would simply argue that they were not the ones responsible for the pollution...rather it is the car owners who should be sued.

 No. People that you have invited onto your property are your responcibility. If they shoot at the neighbours, the neighbours cannot possibly get to them without entering your domain, for which they would need your permission.

He assumes that all costs for the road should be borne by the users. A road network however provides benefits to those who may not directly use it.

 So they will pay for indirect use indirectly. If you benefit because of your location, your property value will raise accordingly, true.
 And since the location becomes more desirable and people richer, the price for the road may be raised and the cost of their goods delivered over the road will increase. So you will pay for the road as a part of your groseries. Or by charging less from your business customers to compansate for the toll price they pay to get to you.

Lastly, this assumes that private roads cannot be built. If it were truly a profitable enterprise then there would be a lot more private toll roads since there is nothing stopping them from being built.

 ??? They can and they are. Every new development contains a private - community owned - road. I bet an owner could build a shortcut through his property from the inside of such development to the highway if it were profitable.
 Since the taxpayers have to pay for a government road anyway, they have less insentive to use private roads, that's why it's hard to compete.
 Why would a contractor build a private road if he can persuade a local legislature to hire him to build it at taxpayers' expense? He would incure no risk that it would not be profitable.

 Remember, most government interventions only make sence in light of the previous intervention - like providing welfare for those unemloyed due to labor law preventing them from work. Gov't would build roads bacause private companies would not do that - because of government actiona. So replacing just one element of the socialist system with a free market would surely bring absurd results. But in a free market the situation would not arise at all.

 Like there would not be a need to discuss the need for inflation to curb unemployment because under free market capitalism there cannot be (persistent) unempleyment.

I'd like to hear about them.

 US, Ancient Greece, anything in betweem where a lot of people were literate without a government program. Literacy spread when it become profitable to be able to read, not the other way around.


Menger, the father of the Austrian school, realized that there was more to economics than the numbers when he re-discovered praxology

 Actually, he (and Mises) discovered that there were no numbers at all to economics. The human valuation is ordinal, not cardinal. We rank our preferences but cannot estimate them numerically.

 They were trying to show that economics is not a science per se, in that it cannot be adequately mathematically modeled.

 No, they claim that economics/praxeology is a valid theortical science in which mathematical methods are not applicable.
 It's the Compte's and Ecole Politechnique gang's fallacy that only that is science that uses mathematics.

 There are no constants in human behavior, hence no formulas are possible, only logical statements.

----
 On roads, consider this example - the development of railroads. England was covered by privately-built profitable railroads in no time, so was the Europe.
 The few resulting huge English railway-building companies faced bancrupcy for lack of projects and protectionist foreign governments did not let them in in favor of local politically-connected businesses.
 So the english companies pushed the Queens government to build railways in India - at the expense of India's treasury that was separate from England. The politicians were easily sold on such a grand scheme, not realising that England built the railroads because it was rich, ratehr than got rich because it built the railroads.

 The roads were built not where business considerations required but where bureaucrats and andministrators believed they should be built. The cost overruns were humongous.
 Not only the Indian economyw as not ready to make profitable use of the ralroads, the taxes that indian peasants had to pay to recoup the costs and operating expenses delayed the capital accumulation in India for decades and caused all sorts of political implications that are felt even now.
 If Robinson Crusoe started building a trawler instead of a small boat for fishing, he would have died from hunger. If he was forced to pay for the constriction of trawler from his limited resources, his progress towards wealth would have been much slower than otherwise. Market allocates resources towards the most urgent uses, not the government.

 miko
« Last Edit: December 24, 2003, 12:10:27 PM by miko2d »

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #56 on: December 24, 2003, 11:57:25 AM »
crowMAW: they are complementary not mutually exclusive... Oddly, it seems that proponents of the two schools like to argue that one is exclusively better than the other.

 Chicago school believes that government must confiscate a portion of people's property every year by the way of monetary inflation of fiat currency.
 Austrians believe that free market should decide what acts as money - with commodity standard most likely developing as monetary system.
  Austrians believe that fall in prices is the natural result of the free market development and should not be tinkered with. CS demands artificial inflation - with all ensuing ill-effects on temporal structure of capital, causing the business cycle phenomena, etc.
 What could be more contradictory than that?

 miko

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #57 on: December 24, 2003, 06:24:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
The government consisting of saints would not be able to do the cost-benefit analysis.

You are right...we do not know what we do not know (I feel like Donald Rumsfeld...unknown unknowns).  And that is why there should be limits to government expenditures.  Those expenditures should be limited to those which support the legitimate role that government should play.  And even for those expenditures a cost-benefit analysis should be done based on the known costs.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Unfortunately, without a coercive element of some kind, the enforcement of any standard is moot. Whether that coercion is threat of pulling the UL label off of a product if it does not conform to the standards that UL sets...or if it is the threat of civil suits and possible jail for fraud

Competition. A new company's products would naturally be weighted, tested and avoided by some - unless they were certified by an established accreditation institution.
An established company's repuration would so reduce it's transaction costs that it would be unprofitable to risk that reputation.

Pulling a label for non-compliance is not coersion.

The mechanism by which the coersion takes place is different but the effect is the same...coersion.  UL sets standards...the established institution must meet those standards or UL takes away its label, which leads to a loss of customers and loss of revenue.  That IS coersion.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
It is no accident that the family-run businesses based on reputation are less prominent in our times. The misplaced trust in government oversight made reputation less of a competitive advantage.

Why do you think that government regulation and oversight agencies exist?  Every company would not have to submit to an accreditation organization in order to sell a product.  If there is only one accreditation organization for a market of producers, then the "free market" can work since customers will just avoid those products without the accreditation sticker.  BUT, there is nothing to keep many accreditation organizations from springing up.  So lets say there 50 accreditation organizations for gasoline all with different standards.  I certainly don't have the expertise in chemistry to know which standards meet my needs/wants.  If I were to spend time to properly educate myself on that subject to the required level I would consider that a cost.  If I had to do that for every product I buy, the total costs would be huge.  Plus, companies would be free to "create" their own accreditation organization...how independent would their tests to standards be for their parent companies?

I would have to choose between "HIGH" grade gasoline from Texico and "BEST" grade from Chevron and "A+" grade from BP.  I know my car needs 92+ octane...would I need to buy an octane tester to carry in my car?  Again...complexity increases...costs increase.

Instead we have a governmental agents who have the technical knowledge that I lack to test gasoline for a standard set grade and punish those who commit fraud.

Another way to look at regulatory agencies is to consider that they employ the effeciencies of specialization in order to collect information on products.  That way everyone does not need to become experts in determining if the gasoline is good, and their beef is safe, and that their water is clean, and that their insurance company or bank is solvent...etc.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
but even in a stateless society fraud would not be widespread.

ROTFLOL :rofl

Time to take off the rose colored glasses Miko.  You are sounding like a communist who says that everyone will work as hard as they are able. People WILL cheat if they think they won't be caught or if the consequences are insignificant.  The human race is not as altruistic as you and Mr. Marx think it should be.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
 Check this article  

Again...both of you are missing the point of standards and legislation like truth-in-advertising.  They give buyers who have made a purchase decision based on information that was made perposely imperfect by the seller the legal standing to recover damages.  Without them...it is purely caveat emptor.  I say that pure caveat emptor is suboptimal for maximizing an economic system since it fosters high transaction costs.

Offline crowMAW

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #58 on: December 24, 2003, 08:35:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
whether the original act was intentional or accidental. The government would help you collect restitution.

I agree with that definition.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Anyone, not just the government-designated enforcers, would be able to hunt him down.

We can do that now...it is called citizens arrest.  The only problem with a citizens arrest is that the citizen had better be correct when detaining a suspected criminal otherwise the citizen has commited the crime of false imprisonment or kidnapping.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
The alternative is the wild west...which is great for individualists but hard on longevity.

 That's just propaganda. I saw the stats of the Wild West in comparison with modern crime stats.

You are taking the phrase too literally...the "wild west" is an allegory.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
That does not prohibit a non-local road owner from denying access. Go back to my example regarding the two competing companies.


There are plenty of areas that are less accessible, that can lose access seasonally, etc.
[/B]

We are not talking about seasonal outages.  The example goes to the point that one of two competing companies could aquire a necessary road in order to deny a competitor access to market.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
A guaranteed access is a valuable economic good. An owner would enter into contractual obligation mandatory to the future owners for the market price of such obligation.

The cost of entering into a contract for guaranteed access for every road on the network would be prohibitively high.  You cannot simply obtain guaranteed access of one node to one branch on the network and expect access to all branches in a privatized road network.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
and I can give you examples where government has provided a service more efficiently than a private contractor.

I bet you can't

See my next post...
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
they have to pay for the new electronic payment devices to be installed in the roads and in their cars.

But the roads would only be built where they make economic sense and not waste society's resources.

But the construction costs would be higher by having to have the electronic payment devices meaning that the economic threshold for building the road would be artificially higher.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Metered access would make the road utilisation more efficient

Why?
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
You would pay for a device on your car but you would not pay for a 70-miles long driveway for some rich man's estate on a picturesque remote corner of Long Island. Let him pay for it.

Government shoudl not be paying for that anyway.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
No. People that you have invited onto your property are your responcibility. If they shoot at the neighbours, the neighbours cannot possibly get to them without entering your domain, for which they would need your permission.

But you are saying that the person who is shooting the neighbors is not responsible?  Do you realize how stupid that sounds.  One of the tenents of libertarianism is personal responsibilty for one's actions.  If I shoot at someone from my yard or as an invited guest in someone elses yard, I should be responsible for my actions.  In the road owner example, if I drive a high polluting car, then those hurt by my actions should have recourse against me.  I am not even sure that making the road owner's liability joint & several with the polluter is appropriate.

Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Every new development contains a private - community owned - road.

Are these toll roads?  We are talking toll roads here.  Why don't these road owners charge a toll to non-residents to use their road?
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Since the taxpayers have to pay for a government road anyway, they have less insentive to use private roads, that's why it's hard to compete.

But if it was such a good thing they should be able to compete with public roads by keeping them better maintained or more beautiful or safer than public roads.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
Why would a contractor build a private road if he can persuade a local legislature to hire him to build it at taxpayers' expense? He would incure no risk that it would not be profitable.

There are certainly examples where that has happened.  But if the road was not being constructed where there was a quantifiable need for it, then the legislature acted outside of its legitimate role.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
US, Ancient Greece, anything in betweem where a lot of people were literate without a government program.

But you said there were examples of societies where there were high literacy rates without government intervention.  What was the literacy rate in Ancient Greece?

Since there really hasn't been a time where the US did not have some form of public schools operating, I am not sure how you can make the claim that the US is an example.
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d
They were trying to show that economics is not a science per se, in that it cannot be adequately mathematically modeled.

No, they claim that economics/praxeology is a valid theortical science in which mathematical methods are not applicable.

Umm...isn't that what I said?

Offline miko2d

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Question Regarding Political Philosophy
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2003, 08:49:53 PM »
crowMAW: The mechanism by which the coersion takes place is different but the effect is the same...coersion.  UL sets standards...the established institution must meet those standards or UL takes away its label, which leads to a loss of customers and loss of revenue.  That IS coersion.

 It is not a valid argument technique to redefine the opponent's terms and then pretend that everything he said used the new meaning.
 If you are so set on calling any exertion of influence "coercion" - fine. I can't force you to do otherwise. But I can exert and influence on you - coerce you in your terms - by threatening to withdraw from an argument to either stop using a term "coersion" for "exerting influence" or at least tell me what word I should use for exerting influence that does not involve application or threat of violence.
 There is a big difference between "I will not cooperate with you and you will lose the benefits of my help" and "I will kill you and take away your property". That is a difference between liberty and slavery - not a minor nuance.

 If UL decides not to coopeate with a company, it can go to UL's competitor or sell its products without UL label.

Why do you think that government regulation and oversight agencies exist?

 Power grab by the politicians.

Every company would not have to submit to an accreditation organization in order to sell a product.

 And the competiton - and the accrediation organisation itself - would quickly make that fact known.

If there is only one accreditation organization for a market of producers, then the "free market" can work since customers will just avoid those products without the accreditation sticker.  BUT, there is nothing to keep many accreditation organizations from springing up.

 There must be more - otherwise there would be no competition. Every department store is an accreditation company for all the goods it sells, every butique store as well.
 I buy Brooks Brothers stuff for more money because I know they sell good stuff that I do not need to spend time researching. I go to other stores to buy crap cheap.

So lets say there 50 accreditation organizations for gasoline all with different standards.

 That would be like what we have today with 50 state standards that make single market for gasoline impossible and so increase transaction costs.

I certainly don't have the expertise in chemistry to know which standards meet my needs/wants.  If I were to spend time to properly educate myself on that subject to the required level I would consider that a cost.

 So you would stay with a horse buggy rather than switch to a car? You would still have to know what kind of grass to feed your horse - some of it is poisonous.

If I had to do that for every product I buy, the total costs would be huge.

 In many cases it does not pay to do research at all - the TV set that costs 5 hours of your labor is not worth investigating other than a qhuck search. For a car you read Consumer Reports. For a house you hire an inspection engineer for few hundred dollars - not relying on the government's occupancy permit.

Again...complexity increases...costs increase.

 That is not what heppens in a free market - costs always decrease.
 The cost increases and quality decreases only with a monopoly - like any government.

Instead we have a governmental agents who have the technical knowledge that I lack to test gasoline for a standard set grade and punish those who commit fraud.

 Same considerations apply. How do you know if they are competent, up to date, not biased? They are not working for you like a private provider does - they tax you whether you like their service or not.

Another way to look at regulatory agencies is to consider that they employ the effeciencies of specialization in order to collect information on products.

 No problem with that. Private competing ones do it even better than monopolies do.

That way everyone does not need to become experts in determining if the gasoline is good, and their beef is safe, and that their water is clean, and that their insurance company or bank is solvent...etc.

 Or whether the otehr county poses a threat and your children have to be sacrificed.

Time to take off the rose colored glasses Miko.  You are sounding like a communist who says that everyone will work as hard as they are able.

 Sorry, but it is you who are sounding like an idealistic communist - saying the government employees will work as hard as they are able in some kind of utopia.

 I am saying quite the opposite - people will work well under free market competition or they will starve or at least lose their business. Government subcidises failure - under free market failures are liquidated in favor of successfull businesses that best satisfy coustomers needs.

People WILL cheat if they think they won't be caught or if the consequences are insignificant.  The human race is not as altruistic as you and Mr. Marx think it should be.

 That's why we cannot rely on monopoly of government services where cheaters are bound to accumulate and operate unchecked. The competition is the best defence for cheaters - and prospect of starvation, of course.

Again...both of you are missing the point of standards and legislation like truth-in-advertising.  They give buyers who have made a purchase decision based on information that was made perposely imperfect by the seller the legal standing to recover damages.  Without them...it is purely caveat emptor.

 Free market either had or could have had better solutions than all of those.
 There is plenty of cheating going on despite of and using the powers of government - more than it ever would be possible under the free market.
 The government standards cost tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths every year - cost that nobody in the government  takes into account and that dying people are not allowed to take into account.
 Government expenses and regulations bear no resemblance to the reality, only to the hype by special interests groups and monopolies that use government power to ward off the competition.

 miko