Author Topic: Spitfire IX Armament (Read 13184 times)

Wizer · « **on:** January 07, 2004, 06:29:07 PM »

The Spitfire IX is basically a re-engined Spitfire Mk V and came equiped with" B", "C" and "E" wing armament packages. The "C: Wing armament package consisted of four .303 machine guns and two 20 mm. Hispano cannons. The "E" wing armament package consisted of two Hispano 20-mm cannons and two Browning .50 caliber machine guns. The "E" wing could also be configured with four instead of two Hispano 20 mm cannons and two .50 caliber machine guns. The Spitfire IX in Aces High has the "C" and "E" wing armament, but the "E" wing package only has the two 20-mm cannons and two Browning .50 caliber machine guns. What about upgrading the configuration to the four .20 mm cannons and two .50 caliber machine guns.

wizer

Urchin · « **Reply #1 on:** January 07, 2004, 08:05:10 PM »

That'd be swell, except for the fact that no operational plane had 4 20mm and 2 .50's. 4 20mm, yes. 2 20mm and 2 .50's, yes. 4 20mm and 2 .50's, no.

bockko · « **Reply #2 on:** January 07, 2004, 09:24:36 PM »

excellent call urchin....so lets get them 4 cannons in the spit!

Bodhi · « **Reply #3 on:** January 07, 2004, 11:44:45 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Urchin
That'd be swell, except for the fact that no operational plane had 4 20mm and 2 .50's. 4 20mm, yes. 2 20mm and 2 .50's, yes. 4 20mm and 2 .50's, no.

Urchin,

that is an extremely broad statement that is impossible to back up. I can show you a picture of a 38 with 8 .50 cals in the nose, that was flown operationally, but there are those that argue it never happened. Or better yet the pics of us 51d's outfitted with 4 20 mm that were flown in group strength. The important thing to remember is that a lot of different things were tried in WW2, we will never know the full magnitude of it all, but for us to say something never did, is just plain absurd, especially consdiering hardly a one of us were ever there.

Karnak · « **Reply #4 on:** January 08, 2004, 12:18:42 AM »

I think the original poster meant that the E wing could have two 20mm cannon and two .50 calibre machine guns or four 20mm cannon.

He just worded it poorly.

That said, I don't think so, not at all.

The Spitfire F.Mk IX with the Merlin 61 engine (thr AH Spit IX's engine) only carried the B wing of two 20mm cannon and four .303 calibre machine guns. That is what ours should be limited to.

Either that or keep its current options, but remodel the performance as a Merlin 63 powered Spitfire F.Mk IX.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #5 on:** January 08, 2004, 02:19:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Bodhi
Urchin,

that is an extremely broad statement that is impossible to back up. I can show you a picture of a 38 with 8 .50 cals in the nose, that was flown operationally, but there are those that argue it never happened. Or better yet the pics of us 51d's outfitted with 4 20 mm that were flown in group strength. The important thing to remember is that a lot of different things were tried in WW2, we will never know the full magnitude of it all, but for us to say something never did, is just plain absurd, especially consdiering hardly a one of us were ever there.

Can we see a pic of the P-51D with 4 20mm cannons. What Group?

Replicant · « **Reply #6 on:** January 08, 2004, 05:51:23 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by MiloMorai
Can we see a pic of the P-51D with 4 20mm cannons. What Group?

I've only seen pics of Mustang Mk.IA (P-51A - Allison engined) and P-51B (Merlin Engined) that were equipped with 20mm hispano. The Allison engined P-51s were designated another variant and used for armed reconnaisance. The P-51B with cannon was just a prototype IIRC but I know of no P-51Ds fitted with cannons.

DYGCaps · « **Reply #7 on:** January 08, 2004, 06:14:02 AM »

The A-36 Apache (P-51A) was fitted with 4 20mm Hispanos and dive flaps and used for strafing and dive bombing...I know this because I've stood next to one ...

Quote

The A-36A dive bomber was the first AAF version of the "Mustang" developed for Britain in 1940. The A-36 fist flew in Oct. 1942; production of 500 A-36As was completed by March 1943.

There is one on display at the USAF Musuem, however the pics and website hasn't been updated as this one is fitted with 4x 20mm cannons now.

Tony Williams · « **Reply #8 on:** January 08, 2004, 07:47:32 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DYGCaps
The A-36 Apache (P-51A) was fitted with 4 20mm Hispanos and dive flaps and used for strafing and dive bombing...I know this because I've stood next to one ...

There is one on display at the USAF Musuem, however the pics and website hasn't been updated as this one is fitted with 4x 20mm cannons now.

The standard armament for the A-36A was four .50 in the wings, and two synchronised .50 in the lower cowling, so a 20mm fit sounds like a 'one-off'.

The only Mustangs fitted with cannon as standard AFAIK were the Mustang Mk.1A (93 built) and the first P-51s (57 built).

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MiloMorai · « **Reply #9 on:** January 08, 2004, 09:01:53 AM »

Tony, the P-51(no letter) were originally part of the British order. These were FD418/FD437, FD450/FD464, FD466/FD469, and FD510/FD527. The corresponding serial numbers assigned by the USSAF for the British a/c were 41-37320/37469.

DYGCaps, are you sure? What is the serial number on the a/c? Is it in this range, 42-83663-84162?

VO101_Isegrim · « **Reply #10 on:** January 08, 2004, 09:57:11 AM »

Wizer, the Mk V. with C wings could indeed carry 4 Hispanos (it was rare though, IIRC there was a lack of Hispano supply), even though 2x20+4x7.7mm was more common. Indeed you are right that the Mk IX was basically a reworked Mk V structure, however you forget that the Mk IX was much heavier, and the tires/undercarriage could not support the extra weight of the Merlin 60 series AND the extra Hispanos. I have never ever seen evidence of any operational Mk IX ever carry 4 cannons. In fact it seems that the wing structure and u/c could not support that until the redesign occuring w. the Mk 2x series.

BTW, AFAIK Mk IXs were either built with C or E type wings (the latter appearing in 1944) with either 2x20mm+4x7.7mm or 2x20mm + 2x12.7mm . Besides, I don`t think there would much gain adding another two Hispanos with their powerful recoil, grouped 4 meters apart into the wings into such a light fighter as the Spit. Remember the Hispano was originally developed as an engine cannon, where the whole weight of the engine could bear the recoil forces, plus it would in the centre of thrustline, = no sideway forces..Those two were already a bit too much for it IMHO, I read that when one jammed aiming become an impossibibilty because of the assymetric recoil.. I always wondered why didn`t the Brits put the MK V Hispanos into the Spits as they appeared, it would be much better suited for them. The Mk IIs were just too powerful in a wing configuration.

Nashwan · « **Reply #11 on:** January 08, 2004, 10:06:49 AM »

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Indeed you are right that the Mk IX was basically a reworked Mk V structure, however you forget that the Mk IX was much heavier, and the tires/undercarriage could not support the extra weight of the Merlin 60 series AND the extra Hispanos.

The Spitfire IX could also carry a 500 lb bomb on the centreline, and later 2 250 lb bombs under the wings as well, so the extra weight of the cannon was hardly that much of an issue.

4 303s and ammunition weighed 205 lbs. 2 Hispanos and ammunition weighed 444 lbs, so the difference was 239 lbs. Not much compared to 1,000lbs of bombs, or even a 90 gallon drop tank, which weighed in excess of 650 lbs.

Tony Williams · « **Reply #12 on:** January 08, 2004, 10:08:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by VO101_Isegrim
I always wondered why didn`t the Brits put the MK V Hispanos into the Spits as they appeared, it would be much better suited for them. The Mk IIs were just too powerful in a wing configuration.

I've wondered that too, the Spitfire seemed to need them more than the Tempest (which I believe was the only wartime plane to make extensive use of the Mk V).

However, the Mk V wasn't significantly less powerful than the Mk II. The muzzle velocity was reduced a bit because of the shorter barrel, but the gun fired faster.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website and discussion
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MiloMorai · « **Reply #13 on:** January 08, 2004, 10:23:36 AM »

The light gunboat 109s and 190s must have had some problems aiming when the MG151s jambed.

Replicant · « **Reply #14 on:** January 08, 2004, 11:01:22 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by DYGCaps
The A-36 Apache (P-51A) was fitted with 4 20mm Hispanos and dive flaps and used for strafing and dive bombing...I know this because I've stood next to one ...

There is one on display at the USAF Musuem, however the pics and website hasn't been updated as this one is fitted with 4x 20mm cannons now.

From what I can see the A-36A was only fitted with 6 x .50 cal MGs, 2 in the cowling. I saw one a few years ago at Duxford flying - see pic below. Fitted with airbrakes and bombs.

The RAF originally ordered 150 P-51s fitted with 20mm cannon (Mustang Mk.IA) but the USAAF requisitioned some back for Hawaii defence. These kept the cameras in the side and was known as something like F6?????