Author Topic: WMD's found in Iraq  (Read 17405 times)

Offline Kieran

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #285 on: January 14, 2004, 01:46:38 PM »
Mea Culpa on #1. If testing proves even traces of chemicals on the shells, 2-4 stand.

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #286 on: January 14, 2004, 01:48:49 PM »
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Mea Culpa on #1. If testing proves even traces of chemicals on the shells, 2-4 stand.


Agreed. As long as they knew about the shells that is...
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #287 on: January 14, 2004, 01:49:59 PM »
I may be an idiot, but I'm an honest idiot. ;)

Edit: not saying you are dishonest, merely confessing my own stupidity.

Offline Maniac

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« Reply #288 on: January 14, 2004, 01:50:51 PM »
LoL!

:aok
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Offline Frogm4n

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #290 on: January 14, 2004, 02:48:43 PM »
I'll let Grun deal with the historical inaccuracies you posted.

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Bosnia broke the peace and therefore, it was bombed into compliance


Although I'm tempted to do one of those "roll eyes" thingies.

*****

The NATO attack on Yugoslavia began At 1900 hours GMT on 24 March 1999.

I still see NOTHING in the NATO charter that allows for a defensive alliance to attack a non-member nation, Yugoslavia, that had not attacked any NATO nation. I looked at your links but didn't see it. Where's the change to the NATO charter?

You build your case on UN SC resolutions (btw, you'd want to cite the one on SFOR, not IFOR) that give NATO UN authority to use force.

Here's what I think is a short, fair overview from a Japanese source. I agree with it and I think it sums it up quickly.

Humanitarian Intervention and the Conflict in Kosovo

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... NATO's Air Strike against Yugoslavia

The humanitarian intervention in Kosovo was legitimately started by some European countries in compliance with Resolution 1160(31 March, 1998).  In summer 1998, a major sweep of Yugoslav forces across Kosovo broke out under the guise of fighting back the Kosovo Liberation Army.  SC issued Resolution 1199(23 September 1998) which demanded the cessation of acts of violence against civilians and the   withdrawal of Yugoslav security forces used for civilian repression.  But Yugoslav refusal to obey the resolution lead to NATO's brandishing the threat of force on 12 October.

The wording of the resolutions was to the effect that Yugoslav non-compliance with the resolutions will lead to the consideration of further action and additional measures.  Such wording has been interpreted as requiring SC another action for the mandate of military measures.  Nowhere in the resolutions could be found the usual phrase, "to take all necessary measures" which has been understood as authorizing measures up to military operation.

By the autumn of 1998, all NATO nations agreed that there was a moral and political imperative to act.  So it would have been no problem, if only SC had adopted another required resolution.  The difficulty was that China and Russia had already declared themselves vehemently against using force and so the NATO nations had to rack their brains, in vain, for a legal ground.

The most assertive proponents of military action, the US and the UK, seem to have thought that the existing Resolutions 1160 and especially 1191 based on Chapter VII and the Yugoslav forces in blatant neglect of the demands provided sufficient ground for NATO to use force.  The notion was politically adequate but could not be legally sufficient.  Other countries conceded the legal fragility of using force and tried to search for other grounds than the resolutions.  The reasons they devised included Europe's prominently high standard of human rights protection, imminent risk of humanitarian catastrophe as documented by the UN Secretary-General and an inactive SC paralyzed accidentally with the threat of vetoes by China and Russia....



Nonetheless, the use of NATO forces against Yugoslavia violated the NATO charter. That's what we're talking about here. In short, while the UN may have authorized it, while NATO accepted the authorization and exercised it, that doesn't mean it isn't a violation of the NATO charter.

Both IFOR and SFOR had NATO components as well as components from other countries. It was NATO led, but it was a UN operation, operating under UN directives.

Here's another summary:Ivo Daalder of the Brookings Institution responds:

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the UN Security Council passed three resolutions indicating that events in Kosovo represented threats to regional peace and security (a finding that can trigger such authorization) and even though it did repeatedly demand that Belgrade act in ways Milosevic refused to follow, the Council never authorized the use of force because Russia and China opposed doing so.


There was no UN SC authorization for those airstrikes. Both China and Russia, permanent members said they would veto such a resolution at the time. Remind you of anything?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 02:51:15 PM by Toad »
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #291 on: January 14, 2004, 03:02:49 PM »
So you agree it was a violation of the NATO charter? The air war against Yugoslavia?
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Offline Toad

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« Reply #292 on: January 14, 2004, 03:31:12 PM »
Oh, allow me!

The North Atlantic Treaty

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Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.


You know, when it happened, I thought it was legal. Boroda called me on it here in the O-Club and after a couple long threads and a lot of research, I was forced to the conclusion that Boroda > was correct and it was an illegal use of NATO forces.


When you stand back and look at it though, to me it merely highlights the basic problem with the UN.

There can be no doubt Milosovich needed stopping; in that sense, the NATO airstrikes were the "right" thing to do. However, the UN SC, when the issue was hot and in front of them was paralyzed because China and Russia made it known they'd veto any resolution that authorized the use of force.

The current parallel is clear.

And, again, it's the basic problem with the UN. By it's very nature, it is designed to prevent the use of force.

Unfortunately, there's times that heads need cracking.
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Offline Gixer

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« Reply #293 on: January 14, 2004, 03:47:19 PM »
LMFAO

So this is what they were looking for all this time?? Almost as funny as the trailer with "possiblities of being used as a chem/bio lab.  :rofl



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Offline AKIron

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« Reply #294 on: January 14, 2004, 03:55:51 PM »
Cain't find 'em too soon, we ain't stoled all their awl yet.
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Offline Dinger

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« Reply #295 on: January 14, 2004, 04:05:33 PM »
The anti-war crowd never played the "There are no WMD in Iraq" card before the invasion.
I did post here or on AGW before the invasion stating that the Bush Administration's reliance on the WMD justification was very stupid given the US determination to invade.  All SH had to do was destroy all the WMD he knew about, and the US wouldnot even have a pretext for the invasion; we'd come off looking like a warmongering threat to global security -- just the kind of power you'd want to organize terrorist attacks against.

36 120mm mortar shells, eh? Buried, leaking and forgotten in the desert where thousands of these things were used twenty years ago.  I'm sure the Iraqis will find sites like this for fifty years.
heck, if you go to france or belgium and do enough digging, you'll probably find mustard gas-filled shells.

YEah, they're "WMD", and Iraq was forbidden to have these in their stockpiles. The administration is playing down the find because they'd be ridiculed if they announced that this was what we invaded a country, killed thousands of people, and toppled a government for: a handful of forgotten, non-functional shells out in the desert.

Keep looking.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #296 on: January 14, 2004, 07:42:16 PM »
The NATO alliance is only chartered to use military force when one of the member states is under attack and then only against said attacker.

While you may disagree about Milosevic, the sainted UN was heavily involved in trying to stop him. so I guess the UN didn't agree with your assumption. The only thing that stopped a UN SC resolution authorizing the use of force was the Russsian and Chinese threat to veto such a resolution.

Here's another for you folks that think the UN had authorized the NATO use of force:

Annan: U.N. should have been consulted

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March 24, 1999
Web posted at: 6:16 p.m. EDT (1816 GMT)


UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said Wednesday he understood why force might have had to be used in Kosovo but emphasized that the U.N. Security Council needed to be involved in any decision to use it.

As an emergency session of the Security Council began, Annan told reporters, "It is indeed tragic that diplomacy has failed, but there are times when the use of force may be legitimate in the pursuit of peace.

"But as secretary-general I have many times pointed out, not just in relation to Kosovo, that under the (U.N.) Charter, the Security Council has primary responsibility for maintaining international peace and security. This is explicitly acknowledged in the North Atlantic Treaty."

Annan's statement, made after the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) began bombing Yugoslavia on Wednesday evening, appeared to back the Russian position that any military action must have prior council approval.



So while some of YOU may think NATO didn't need further UN SC approval, the U.N. Secretary-General disagrees. I think I'll go with his assessment.

It was illegal.

Scholz, he also seemed to understand "why force might have had to be used in Kosovo."
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Offline Kieran

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« Reply #297 on: January 14, 2004, 07:45:42 PM »
Oops, looks like I might have to retract my concession ala Al Gore. ;)

Offline strk

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« Reply #298 on: January 14, 2004, 07:57:21 PM »
Blister agents arent really what we are looking for anyway.  Heck I bet the US probably gave it to them, if it dates back that far.  It does throw a little egg on some faces but only because it was unexpected.  Lots of people feel strongly about politics today, one way or another, so its no suprise really

strk

Offline lord dolf vader

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« Reply #299 on: January 14, 2004, 08:50:56 PM »
hehe you just saw a several people dogpile one guy who proved them wrong. so they dogpiled again and again.


kieren, you are diverting from reality. read the posts again.