Author Topic: WMD's found in Iraq  (Read 17402 times)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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WMD's found in Iraq
« Reply #300 on: January 14, 2004, 09:19:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
I disagree that there is a parallel to Iraq, and I also disagree that Milosevic needed stopping and that international intervention was needed on such a level. The Kosovo conflict was initiated by Kosovo-Albanian terrorists who slaughtered hundreds of Serb civilians and forced Yugoslav military intervention. If you want to draw a parallel it is much closer to Chechnya. The conflict soon escalated to almost civil war proportions.

After reading the NATO Charter you posted I must say that I find nothing that prohibits the member nations to use military force against non-members (unlike the UN Charter). But even if the NATO Charter was not violated it is pretty clear that its intentions were, and that by using the organisation in this manner NATO exceeded its authority even if it did not violate its own Charter.

The UN is designed to prevent the use of unnecessary force. Chapter VII of the UN Charter allows the UN to use force to deal with threats to international peace and aggression (i.e. GW1 for instance).

Milosevic's government was not overthrown as a result of the NATO/OSCE/UN action. His government fell later as the result of a civil uprising when it was found that he was cheating in the 2000 elections.


You arent saying it was ok because NATO agreed?  It still was agaibst UN rules was it not?

If you say its ok becauese NATO allience agreed to attack and it was not aginst NATO rules then wahts to stop somebody from saying Iraq was OK because the "Coalaition of the Willing" agreed to attack Iraq..  Neither of those have any special relation to Un and are independant military alliences.

Offline Lazerus

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« Reply #301 on: January 14, 2004, 09:24:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by GScholz
the UN in no way authorized military action against Iraq.


Just a refresher.

678
687
1441

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #302 on: January 14, 2004, 09:43:29 PM »
"COW" claims it was supportiung UN resoltions and is making UN relevant depite itself.

Still I think 95% of Euro oppsition to this war is due to some bizzare dislike of Bush, if Clinton was doing this they would eat it up much easier. They liked Clinton and they dont like Bush.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #303 on: January 14, 2004, 09:52:39 PM »
Maybe you are the exception. :)  

But seeing all those Bush =  Hitler comparsions and protest themnes makes me think its personal for many people.

Offline crowMAW

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« Reply #304 on: January 14, 2004, 09:58:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Lazerus
Just a refresher.

678
687
1441

Laz can you refresh everyone's knowledge as to how any of these constitutes UN authorization for invasion due to Iraq proportedly having WMD.

I recall that UN678 relates to UN660, which calls for Iraq to leave Kuwait back in 1990.  UN678 authorizes force to compel UN660.

UN687 deals in part with the ban and monitoring of the destruction of Iraqi WMD.

And I recall UN1441 saying something about convening to consider the situation after UNMOVIC and IAEA report on WMD inspections while giving Iraq a final opportunity to show compliance with UN687.

Where was that UN authorization for invasion?
« Last Edit: January 14, 2004, 10:01:09 PM by crowMAW »

Offline Fishu

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« Reply #305 on: January 14, 2004, 10:14:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Frogm4n
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=5&u=/ap/20040114/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_mortar_shells


all this yaddayadda for nothing..
Oh well, I'm sure they'll find some real WMD shell...  at least a dud shell from some gassed village.

Offline Godzilla

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« Reply #306 on: January 14, 2004, 10:15:21 PM »
Someone start a new thread please, this one is all over the place regarding subject matter. I am as guilty of posting off topic as much as the next guy, but let's get a new thread and break this endless loop please. :)

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #307 on: January 14, 2004, 10:22:36 PM »
I'm not focusing on party at all, its obvious they have no clue about US politics, what I am saying is they liked Clinton better personally and have a bizzare hatred of Bush.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #308 on: January 14, 2004, 11:18:26 PM »
There can be no doubt about the intent of NATO.

From the Nato website:
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Origins of the North Atlantic Treaty



Negotiating the Atlantic Treaty

On the 6th July, 1948, the preliminary talks which led to the North Atlantic Treaty began in Washington between the State Department and the Ambassadors of Canada and of the Brussels Treaty Powers. It was agreed from the start that any treaty for common defence, linking countries from both sides of the Atlantic, should be within the framework of the United Nations' Charter. These talks ended on the 9th September, 1948, with a report to governments recommending inter alia that the proposed treaty should:

promote peace and security;

express determination of the Parties to resist aggression;

define the area in which it should be operative;


be based on self-help and mutual aid;

be more than military: that is, promote the stability and well being of the North Atlantic peoples;

provide machinery for implementation.

The report was duly considered by governments, and at the end of October the Consultative Council of the Brussels Treaty was able to announce 'complete agreement on the principle of a defensive pact for the North Atlantic and on the next steps to be taken in this direction'. The 'next steps' were the actual drafting of the North Atlantic Treaty which started in Washington on the 10th December, 1948, between representatives of the seven Powers.



So your evaluation doesn't make sense. Clearly, NATO is and was always intended to be a mutual defensive pact between member nations. NONE of those countries were attacked by Yugoslavia.

No where in the Charter or in the history of the formation of NATO can you find reference to anything other than mutual defense. There NOTHING about "attacking" anyone else. Indeed, the ONLY concept mentioned is that of DEFENSE of member nations. It is the intent and raison d'etre for the NATO alliance.

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Scholz:

 Most of the UNSC nations did want to intervene in Kosovo ... and unfortunately they did. The nations that attacked Yugoslavia were the same nations in the UN that wanted UN intervention.


Really? No kidding?

"Many of the UNSC nations did want to intervene in Iraq ... and unfortunately they did. The nations that attacked Iraq were the same nations in the UN that wanted UN intervention."

:)

Quote
Does this mean you also think the invasion of Iraq was illegal?


As I have said many, many times before, if they don't find evidence of WMD, it was absolutely illegal and Bush should step down. They've had Saddam for one month; I'll give them maybe 5 more to show something. After that..... I'll say it was absolutely illegal. But I am willing to give them time to squeeze Saddam.


Just as I say Clinton's use of American Forces in the NATO attack on Yugoslavia was illegal. I agree with the UN Secretary-General on that. I mean, he runs the organization; he ought to know, eh?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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« Reply #309 on: January 15, 2004, 12:15:59 AM »
I wrote the letter I agreed to write when I lost the bet on the "6 month" timeframe.

Nash acknowledged getting it here on this BBS.

The letter to all Senators and Reps will be written in about 5 more months. I'll give them that long to grill Saddam. But if you have the guy you said had the WMD and can't find anything in 6 months of interrogation... that's about my personal limit.

If that's the case, I think Bush should step down. He won't, of course, but I won't support him in the next election and will send my money and support to another candidate.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #310 on: January 15, 2004, 01:16:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Fishu
all this yaddayadda for nothing..
Oh well, I'm sure they'll find some real WMD shell...  at least a dud shell from some gassed village.

the arguement isnt if they had them years ago, its if iraq had them and ready to use on us right before the war.
villages are slaughtered all over the world, and i dont see you screaming to go in and invade.

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #311 on: January 15, 2004, 06:17:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lord dolf vader
hehe you just saw a several people dogpile one guy who proved them wrong. so they dogpiled again and again.


kieren, you are diverting from reality. read the posts again.


You needs some company there anyway, Towd. ;)

Look, I'll admit anytime I can be proven wrong. Freely. IF OTOH Toad is right about NATO acting without a UN resolution because both Russia and China promised to veto such an action...? What's that mean to you?

Offline Staga

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« Reply #312 on: January 15, 2004, 06:31:11 AM »
Russia and China learned that from all those vetoes U.S has made in UN ?

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #313 on: January 15, 2004, 06:49:42 AM »
No Staga, it would mean my argument with Gscholz was correct. Right?

Offline Kieran

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« Reply #314 on: January 15, 2004, 10:09:30 AM »
Gscholtz,

1. You have said the US is criminal in its actions in Iraq based on the fact the UNSC did not pass a resolution to use military force.

2. I said the NATO action in the Balkans happened without such a resolution.

3. You gave me a resolution number and a quote, which I accepted as your argument.

4. Toad has since proven there was no UNSC resolution authorizing military force, because Russia and China promised to veto any such resolution.

Does that roughly cover it? What do you mean specifically when you say NATO action there was "shaky"? I don't want to stick words in your mouth, do you believe it was legal by UN standards or not? You're oscillating back and forth so hard I can't tell.

I am always prepared to admit I am wrong. Are you?