ACMs and info

[gofaster]

Originally posted by Cobra412
I typically start mine in a shallow nose down left or right bank at approximately 1k out.  So long as there closure rate stays fairly high and doesn't seem to be dropping off I'll keep pulling gently back on the stick.  At approximately 400 to 500 out I'll complete a hard pull back then almost instantly going roll wings level and up to an inverted position.  At that time I'll reaquire the target and roll back across our initial heading or roll away from there direction and extending out.  So long as I have decent altitude to complete a a split s at the top if things go bad I seem to be fairly safe.

That's the one.  With enough air under your feet you can get the Corsair back into clean configuration and use its dive accelleration to get your energy back. Of course, this only works for the first or second merge.  After that, you're almost out of altitude.  Works well against Typhoons, too.

[mars01]

So, if I understand correctly, as soon as you realize you're going to overshoot, you pull up then roll-over.

It's realizing early that you have a plane that is most likely going to try this kind of manuever and anticipate the slow down, so you don't get into an overshoot scenario to start with.  I expect this from hogs and 47 because they decelerate so fast, so when I see the closure rate increase the jig is up and I am setting up for a nice controlled approach.  If the hog does start to turn inside I'm the higer faster plane I can increase my climb angle, roll over and dive down on a floundering target.  Even if you get the thing moving again you arent going to out accelerate an LA7 enough to get away, and you just bled your e so you arent going to get the nose up and start to out climb the LA.

One of the reasons I have gotten so good at this, is because I used to be so bad at it lol.

[gofaster]

Originally posted by mars01
It's realizing early that you have a plane that is most likely going to try this kind of manuever and anticipate the slow down, so you don't get into an overshoot scenario to start with.  I expect this from hogs and 47 because they decelerate so fast, so when I see the closure rate increase the jig is up and I am setting up for a nice controlled approach.  If the hog does start to turn inside I'm the higer faster plane I can increase my climb angle, roll over and dive down on a floundering target.  Even if you get the thing moving again you arent going to out accelerate an LA7 enough to get away, and you just bled your e so you arent going to get the nose up and start to out climb the LA.

One of the reasons I have gotten so good at this, is because I used to be so bad at it lol.

Then we don't need to test it, since you've just proven that the overshoot won't happen because you break off your initial merge to set up for a second merge.

[Cobra412]

I get what Mars is saying and I've started to get a little better at this anticipation thing.  But one question for you Mars is if your expecting this do you setup your track angle so as to force the maneuver you want so to speak?

What I mean by that is if your closing on there dead six high or low they have more options than if you were per say slightly left or right of center during closure.  Being slightly left or right of center ( 5 to 10 degrees) would typically induce the bogey to turn back into your tracking angle to force an over shoot of some type or close the the TA to a point of a making the snap shot extremely difficult.  

If for some reason they don't go to this maneuver and bank opposite you've not necessarily lost the advantage but gone to a lag pursuit position in which you just have to saddle back up using a combination of high or low yo yo's.  Or I'd assume if your energy state is better then you'd also have the option of zoom climbing out or using a shallow spiral climb to gain bank potential energy.

I'm not sure if this thought process of mine is logical but it seems correct on paper.  But ofcourse not everthing on paper works as it's drawn.

[moot]

herding.

[mars01]

Then we don't need to test it, since you've just proven that the overshoot won't happen because you break off your initial merge to set up for a second merge.

I'm not sure I follow you on the break off?  If the guy is slowing and I don't have to worry about another bandit coming down, then I will slow with the con enough to get the shot.

I guess the second merge you are talking about is if I pull up, roll over and dive down?  But really it's just a delay to the initial merge but now were just talking semantics I guess.

Yeah I think your right no need to test.

[mars01]

But one question for you Mars is if your expecting this do you setup your track angle so as to force the maneuver you want so to speak?

Not really.  Dead six keeps my options open as well.  As you stated if your off angle, it gives the bandit a better angle to beat the snap shot, if it comes to that.  But in the scenario the con is dumping e for an over shoot, if I slow with him usually by the time he realizes there will be no overshoot, I'm in gun range.

If it starts angle off and I am higher, I will chase enough to get them thinking about turning.  If I have adequate alt, and they start to dive under, at this point I may slow some roll inverted and wait to see if they are going to commit to the turn.  Once they commit I'll roll my wings in thier direction and pull back  diving in behind or on them.  Again speed is the factor here.  Depending on the space between myself and the con I may pull back to idle anticipating speed gain in dive.

If for some reason they don't go to this maneuver and bank opposite you've not necessarily lost the advantage but gone to a lag pursuit position in which you just have to saddle back up using a combination of high or low yo yo's. Or I'd assume if your energy state is better then you'd also have the option of zoom climbing out or using a shallow spiral climb to gain bank potential energy.

Yeah, I think I agree with that.

[Cobra412]

cc Mars... In the scenario I'm think the con is bleeding of energy not necessarily by throttle but by maneuvering(if done correctly I'd assume the average pilot wouldn't notice much).  Slowly loading a less agile turning aircraft through a slow and gradually increasing turn.  

This is ofcourse if the attacking fighter is aggressive and pushing a lead pursuit position.  Then once in tight enough but not to the point of getting a decent high deflection shot, a sharp hard turn in the same direction by the defender.  If the attacking pilot is an average pilot he is most likely going to go to a high oblique turn in the same direction above the defender or extend out for another engagement.

This same maneuver on a more experienced pilot would show the lead pursuit and expect this counter.  By that they are infact setting the defender to do what it expects it to do which is force a hard high deflection shot/overshoot.  If the attacker is also hidding there energy well enough then they can high/low yo yo or wing over to defeat the turn and get back inside them.

At that time the attacker could also force a rolling scissors opposed to the flat scissors that the defender is mostly likely trying to setup.  Because the attacker has potential energy and the defender has burned much of his this would seem to be the best possible solution.

I don't know but I guess this is also more towards two disimiliar aircraft with the high wing loaded aircraft being the attacker.  I'm can understand some of the ACM thing but I'm not sure if what I'm seeing and what they are meaning are the same thing.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by gofaster
So, if I understand correctly, as soon as you realize you're going to overshoot, you pull up then roll-over.  So how do you pull back down inside the Corsair's turn if he counters your high yo-yo with a nose-up yo-yo of his own?  Wouldn't you end up in a wobbly yo-yo with the slower aircraft eventually ending up inside the turn of the faster aircraft?

gofaster ...

I am envisioning an La-7 that has alot of smash or the HOG is real slow cause the closer rate is real fast.

Once I pull up, I reaquire the target and continue the zoom until I see what the HOG has actually done. If the HOG starts to pull nose up, I will continue the zoom hoping for a rope if I have judged the HOGs E state correctly. If the HOG continues to turn, I will level the wings and then start to set up BnZ passes.

So many variables ... so many things to do.

Glad to see my buddy Mars put the darts back in his pocket. I have fought against Cobra on a few occasions and had some good fights. For someone who has been flying for 6 months ... maybe AH for 6 months ... methinks that he has experience elsewhere, cause he is not to be taken lightly when engaged.

Good discussion here ... I have learned a few things from it.

[Steve]

Attaboy Slap!!!  Why react to what the Hog does when you can zoom(I prefer to spiral over and wait for the ideal angle to present itself), reacquire, and dictate the fight?!  If you're in a hurry for a gun solution yo-yo back down and take the shot that is presented.  If you're like me you'll go up in your zoom, spiral and have a look around.  If you've got time, use the spiral to put yourself in the best position for the end game, as the E bleeding Hog flounders helplessly below you.(man just typing that caused a pavlovian response)..... I can see big blue down there, the pilot realizing his options are gone, keying his mic and trying to find someone to helpl him out. Freindss answer they are "OTW, hang on!"

Hehehe, wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!  Too late!!!!  They'll arrive just in time to see their friend's pieces rain across the landscape.  Only as they look up at my shiny pony do they realize they themselves have been ensared.  Next!  


OK OK... I'm better now... love the chess game!

[Dux]

Originally posted by hitech
And use the film viewer to find out how you got beat.

HiTech

Hey HiTech... any chance that the film viewer in AH2 will (or could) show control surface movement?

[moot]

more telemetry, even in raw format, would be cool too

[mars01]

Ahhh Steve, patience is the true skill to master in this game.

Thats why your landing kills and I'm dying with kills lol