Author Topic: Spitfire IX overmodeled?? (Read 38846 times)

F4UDOA · « **Reply #135 on:** January 25, 2004, 03:53:40 PM »

Batz,

Show me one peice of data you have ever posted. You have nothing and bring nothing. Worthless.

I quoted my source right from the JG26 war diaries. Learn to read and you might get a clue. But I doubt it.

You know what I tell you Bee-atch.

Pongo · « **Reply #136 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:02:24 PM »

Crump
Our for a long walk this morning after breakfast and thought about this debate.
Your a cool guy. I can see you in Afganistan thinking about the war you were in and the wars men have been in throughout our history and coming to conclusions about how your fight was just like many other fights. I dont aggree with your conclusions in regards BOB but I do admit that the will to fight and to work as a unit and an army and defend your country are amoungst inmportant of assets and factors in war. I think indoctrination takes a part in that asset.
Anyway. Hope to be able to talk over this with a beer some day. Infanteer to infanteer and talk over your experiances and thank you for your service.
Pongo.

gripen · « **Reply #137 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:07:57 PM »

Crumpp,
The LW lost far more single engined fighters in Normandy than in the Big Week. Overall air war over Normandy was by far largest short period air battle of the war. Do not try to under estimate part of the Luftwaffe on it. And during May USAF still lost near 400 planes to enemy fighters, far more than during Big Week and it should be noted that activity in the other fronts raised that time too. Still Luftwaffe could maintain over 1000 single engined fighter force troughout summer and fought hard on several fronts. Statistics do not support Caldwell.

gripen

Batz · « **Reply #138 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:30:21 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Batz,

Show me one peice of data you have ever posted. You have nothing and bring nothing. Worthless.

I quoted my source right from the JG26 war diaries. Learn to read and you might get a clue. But I doubt it.

You know what I tell you Bee-atch.

You posted a bunch of excerpts but the conclusion you made was your own.

All your LW stuff comes from Carson or Caldwell, big deal. Just posting other peoples data is nothing worth any mention.

You have given me all the clues I need to determine you are in fact a clown. Now get to work on those balloon animals.

Quote

I posted data damn it you Bee-atch

Nice rant kook. lol

MiloMorai · « **Reply #139 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:37:38 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by straffo
I disagree with 2 things : it's Eveux* and st André (I'm nitpicking here )

*you can trust me I'm living here

Wtf is your post F4UDOA ???

NP;) Forgive the lack of accents.

.........

No Crumpp, where did you get that idiotic idea from that I claim the LW was a viable force.

Your are the one that is being the moron. No not viable but FAR from the spent force you claim it to be.
Did you suffer shell shock, for your brain seems not to be functioning properly.

You were the one that made the moronic statement that no LW a/c from LuftReich ever made it to France before the breakout at StLo., which was totally false. How they fared once they arrived is another matter.

You also claim that the LW was a spent force by June 1944. Well it did not do to bad for the next 11-12 months. How do explain the 2314 USAAF losses in the ETO and MTO to LW a/c with only noob pilots?

Nothing worse than a grunt with a little knowledge.

Crumpp · « **Reply #140 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:39:20 PM »

Check out the link.

It's not Caldwell. It's the USAAF. Your right they lost more fighters in Normany because THAT is what the Luftwaffe was targeting. They were trying to punch through the fighter screen and get their Jabo pilots on target. At the same time they wanted to prevent the AEAF fighter bombers from attacking the German Army. So yes your absolutely right they lost more fighters in Normandy than in Big Week. In Big Week the LW was going after the Bombers and ignoring the fighters if possible.

However they didn't reach the beachheads or effect the ground conflict in anyway. It's a fact that the Allies not only had Air Superiority but Air Supremacy. The AEAF owned the sky by June '44.

Specifically the article for Aerospace Power Magazine is written by:

Lt Col Maris ("Buster") McCrabb (BA, Bowling Green State University; MS and MPA, Troy State University) is chief of the Warfare Studies Division at Air command and Staff College, Maxwell AFB, Alabama. Immediately preceding this assignment, he was department chairman of the Joint Doctrine Air Campaign Course of the Combat Employment Institute, Center for Aerospace Doctrine, Research, and Education (CADRE), Maxwell AFB. Colonel McCrabb is a command pilot with more than 3,200 flying hours in the F-4 and F-16 aircraft. During Operation Desert Storm, he was a member of the Combat Plans Division, Joint Task Force Proven Force, Incirlik, Turkey. Colonel McCrabb is a graduate of Squadron Officer School, Air command and Staff College, Air War College, and the US Army Command and General Staff College.

He might know a little bit more about it than me or you.

You can also find it on several 8th AF veterans sites.

Hey Milo some food for thought...
They might have it all wrong. Maybe they just missed the LW at Normandy? You know "Big Sky, Small Plane" syndrome?

Crumpp

Squire · « **Reply #141 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:47:36 PM »

...it would be nice if once and awhile some credit was given to the RAF and RCAF that formed the backbone of the 2nd ATAF from Normandy untill the End in the ETO.

Not to mention the USAAFs IXth AF efforts in the same regard.

"No LW at the beaches" maybe so, I seem to recall the drive to the Rhine taking more than a few days.

Im not taking any issue with the efforts of the 8th AF, but you guys need to read up on more than just the P-51.

Crumpp · « **Reply #142 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:51:52 PM »

Milo I got the idiotic notion from the direct quote from your first reply on the subject. Here I will Post it again.

Quote from Milo-Moran

Quote

Now tell me again how the 8th AF had smashed the LW by June 1944.

See Above post for answer

Remember that?

by the way France is a big country....I said the beachheads not the country....

The losses occurred no doubt but they did nothing to stem the tide. I believe Mick Spick put it like this...75 percent of all Allied AC downed by single engine day fighters were shot down by 10 percent of the LW dayfighter force. Not an exact quote but it gets the geist of it. The few surviving Experts where a handful to deal with and could take on any of the allied fighter pilots one on one. Throw in the Nachwuchs who got lucky, flak, mechanical problems, pilot error crashes, etc... And you will get your number.

Crumpp

DedStk · « **Reply #143 on:** January 25, 2004, 04:58:20 PM »

Hello, HiTech!

I've seen an awful lot of garbage on these boards, and that's why I rarely read 'em. Quite a few contributors take each other on personally and do a bunch of schoolyard name-calling, etc. That's fine I guess, but I'd rather fly.

It's my humble opinion that expecting an apology from STORCH- who is simply pointing things out in the best interests of the game and the players- is short-sighted, and inconsiderate of the other mountains of crap that go on in here. He's a consumer of what you sell! If the customers' opinions don't count, what DOES count? Some very good companies work hard and spend tons of money to get input from their customers, in hopes of making their products better. You get it from STORCH for free, yet it doesn't seem to mean as much to you as whether he says it properly, or whether he ruffles someone's feathers in the process.

Don't agree with the customers' opinions if you don't care too. Don't treat 'em as valuable ideas that could make what you sell better if you don't want to. Still, it might be good to at least respect them for what they are- honest opinions that are, perhaps, shared by many others who haven't spoken up (yet), or taken their business elsewhere (yet).

FWIW.
Best regards.
DedStk

Crumpp · « **Reply #144 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:22:18 PM »

Well put DedStk.

Angus · « **Reply #145 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:23:36 PM »

This thread is about the possible overmodelling of the Spitfire Mk IX from the beginning. Remember? Anyway, it's turned into a complicated artillery barrage of dirtbombs. So please be civilized before Pyro appears and locks it, ok!
Anyway, breaking away from the main topic in a semi-hearted manner, there has been a lively discussion about the BoB and the collapse of the LW.
Just wanted to point at 2 things:
GScholz: ""Combined losses of Luftflotten 2, 3 and 5 (Norway) from 10 July until 31 October 1940, amounted to 1,733 aircraft destroyed compared with 915 aircraft lost (415 pilots killed or missing) by the RAF.""
Very accurate, and I belive verified many times over. TY Scholzie

The on to the LW status at D-Day. I think I may safely say that the were not nearly "finished" by then, however in a poor state. The allies were yet to lose more planes to the guns of the LW than the Germans lost in the BoB. I'd call that something.

Crumpp · « **Reply #146 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:29:27 PM »

Just caught your thread Pongo.

Thank you. The support of the civilian populace means the world to a soldier.

I agree too that indoctrination can greatly influence the "will to fight" of a soldier. How else could the Germans have fought so hard for so long for such an evil cause? Sure many didn't know the full extent but by 1943 most had to have suspected they just didn't want to believe so they fell back on their indoctrination.

Crumpp

Squire · « **Reply #147 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:31:15 PM »

Thats been the ratio since WW1...about 65 percent of the kills went to about 15 percent of the pilots, its true for all air forces.

MiloMorai · « **Reply #148 on:** January 25, 2004, 05:33:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
Milo I got the idiotic notion from the direct quote from your first reply on the subject. Here I will Post it again.

See Above post for answer

Remember that?

by the way France is a big country....I said the beachheads not the country....

The losses occurred no doubt but they did nothing to stem the tide. I believe Mick Spick put it like this...75 percent of all Allied AC downed by single engine day fighters were shot down by 10 percent of the LW dayfighter force. Not an exact quote but it gets the geist of it. The few surviving Experts where a handful to deal with and could take on any of the allied fighter pilots one on one. Throw in the Nachwuchs who got lucky, flak, mechanical problems, pilot error crashes, etc... And you will get your number.

Crumpp

Well your a grunt and should know how to read a map. Look up the place names.

FYI, 2/3 of LW aces with 50 or more kills survived.

quote:Originally posted by Crumpp

Only Luftflotte 3 was in any position to attempt a strike at the landings. Luftflotte Riech was still engaged with its primary mission of intercepting the bombers. Absolutely NONE of Luftflotte Riech's Aircraft made it anywhere close to the landing zone the entire battle. All the way through to the breakout at St Lo.

Where does it say "beachheads"? I am glad you are calling my uncle a liar.

Just to refresh your faulty memory, this was my 1st post

quote:Originally posted by Crumpp

Only Luftflotte 3 was in any position to attempt a strike at the landings. Luftflotte Riech was still engaged with its primary mission of intercepting the bombers. Absolutely NONE of Luftflotte Riech's Aircraft made it anywhere close to the landing zone the entire battle. All the way through to the breakout at St Lo.

Wrong-o.

By June 10 1944,

I.,II., and III./JG1 was based at LeMans, Flers and Beauvais-Tille

I. and II. /JG11 + 10./JG11 based at Rennes St.Jacques and Beauvais-Tille

II., III., and IV(Sturm)./JG3 bases at Evreaux-Fauville, StAndre and Dreux

Stab, I., III. and IV./JG27 based at Romilly-sur-Seine, Rhiems-Champagne and Champfluery

III./JG 54 based at Chartres

All these units came from Luftflotte Reich. Now when was the breakout at St.Lo? Well after D+4 when the LW had extra units in place.

As well as JGr 200 at Avignon.

Yes Angus the LW was 'on the ropes' but was far from being the finished force our illustrious grunt thinks it was.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #149 on:** January 25, 2004, 06:01:15 PM »

JG26, flying 109g6 and fw190a8, maintained a 2 to 1 K/D ratio verses allied aircraft during summer 44.