Author Topic: The Armed Citizen - February (Read 1215 times)

Vulcan · « **Reply #30 on:** February 04, 2004, 04:46:02 PM »

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Originally posted by lazs2
Guns prevent crime, tyranny and make people less vulnerable to those who would harm them.... they protect those who are least likely able to protect themselves like the old and weak and females.

LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).

I know you guys can't dig yourselves out of the hole you've dug. So I'm not really 'arguing' that the US should change. I just feel sorry for you guys. The way you talk about guns is _scarey_ to some us. Especially when people like lazs have to grasp at arguments like this to justify gun ownership.

Lazs you point should be : "guns are so readily accessible to all levels of society there is no going back for the US".

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #31 on:** February 04, 2004, 04:52:19 PM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).

You say that as if there are no other diferrences between NZ & US which could account for that.

vorticon · « **Reply #32 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:01:41 PM »

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Jeff Pantzer of Stuart, Florida, was awakened in the night by the sound of blinds rattling. Someone had broken in just five months previously, and Pantzer now kept a shotgun just in case. He took up his gun and fired as he saw a man’s legs enter his window, scaring the would-be burglar right out of his shoes. “My safety was my first consideration,” Pantzer said. “It was real quick, he was halfway in the window … I fired, and he exited the window at the same time … .” The suspect was not apprehended, but police say he may be linked to four similar burglaries in the area. (The News, Stuart, Florida, 11/27/03)

oh no...someone didnt shoot to kill...this is HORRIBLE

Dune · « **Reply #33 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:11:54 PM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
LOL you can't be serious. We don't have gun ownership in NZ, yet NZ is a paradise compared to the crime I read about here (from the US).

I'm assuming you don't mean that NZ doesn't have any gun ownership.

Otherwise, why would the NZ Council of Licensed Firearms owners say that there are 235,000 there? http://www.colfo.org.nz/

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Around 225,000 New Zealanders have firearms licences and a recent Government inquiry estimates that New Zealand civilians hold between 700,000 and 1,000,000 firearms.

Nearly half a million responsible New Zealanders used firearms in the year to Dec 1996. They safely fired around 15 million cartridges.

Each year around 5,500 New Zealanders apply to the Police for firearms licences. Almost all applicants list hunting or pest destruction as the reason for their application.

Or the Sporting Shooters Assoc. Of New Zealand?
http://www.ssanz.org.nz/index.html

Face it, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get one. This is exactly what Australia and the UK have found out. The number of law-abiding gun owners do not impact this. And this is the problem with gun control laws. They do not accomplish what they set out to do.

Vulcan · « **Reply #34 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:15:09 PM »

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Originally posted by FUNKED1
You say that as if there are no other diferrences between NZ & US which could account for that.

Oh we have poverty, crime, gangs, drug problems and all that crap too. I just think peoples expectations are different, it seems like death or extreme violence are considering the 'norm' for crime in the US (ie mug someone and kill them). Whereas here most robberies, rapes etc do not end in a murder.

I'm sure if you suddenly swamped the market in NZ with readily available firearms the end result would be a huge increase in violent crime and deaths within a short time frame.

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #35 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:17:09 PM »

Vulcan
What crime can sheep commit? Can they even use guns?

Seriusly though, I do not know a single person who fears getting shot or robed. I don't and I own guns for the fun of shooting them. I have felt it was nice to have them in a few cases, but that was rare.

The news media and this board make things seem worse then they are.

You are also right that we have gone to far to go back, at best at this point would be banning guns and then ONLY criminals have them. That scares the **** out of me. I would rather have a gun and never need it or even have a gun and need it then, not have one and have to face a now much braver armed criminal.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #36 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:17:19 PM »

I go to a lot of gunshows.

I've only ever seen a few Private Citizen to Citizen sales. And all but one were hunting rifles / shotguns (the last was a beat up m1a).

However, note that any class 3 weapon changing hands requires forms. Even if it's a private sale.

2Slow · « **Reply #37 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:20:43 PM »

"Those who would sacrifice liberty for security are deserving of neither." Ben Franklin, 1700 something.

Paraphrased I am sure.

Vulcan · « **Reply #38 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:23:54 PM »

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Originally posted by Dune
I'm assuming you don't mean that NZ doesn't have any gun ownership.

Otherwise, why would the NZ Council of Licensed Firearms owners say that there are 235,000 there? http://www.colfo.org.nz/

Face it, if a criminal wants a gun, he will get one. This is exactly what Australia and the UK have found out. The number of law-abiding gun owners do not impact this. And this is the problem with gun control laws. They do not accomplish what they set out to do.

Sorry, I mean't gun ownership in US terms (which seems to be a free for all). Getting a firearms license in NZ is quite a lot of work. You have to pass a safety theory exam, get a background check, get two referees of good standing, cops also check you have suitable storage facilities for firearms etc.

1 million firearms in NZ my ass! Maybe if you counted air-rifles (and soft air guns LOL).

If a criminal wants a firearm, yes he will get one? Maybe not, because of the much smaller commerical market the avenues to obtain a firearm (and ammo) are a lot harder. For example, say a teenager in the US wants to get a gun, its likely the will succeed very easily. Whereas in NZ it would be extremely hard. Whereas an experienced criminal who has the right connections might be able too.

Licensing lessons the commercial market. A smaller commercial market means relatively less unaccounted for firearms. Which makes them that much harder to source illicitly.

Dune · « **Reply #39 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:24:18 PM »

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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I go to a lot of gunshows.

I've only ever seen a few Private Citizen to Citizen sales. And all but one were hunting rifles / shotguns (the last was a beat up m1a).

However, note that any class 3 weapon changing hands requires forms. Even if it's a private sale.

This has been my experience also. Just last year a friend of mine bought a Glock at the Phoenix gun show. And we got to sit around while they ran his info through the computer before the sale went final. There is no loophole.

Besides, you think that if some individual is going to sell a large quantity of firearms to another person, someone he either knows nothing about or knows is involved in illegal activities, he's going to do it at a gunshow? Where lots of people can see him?

Silly. Just silly.

Dune · « **Reply #40 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:26:00 PM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
1 million firearms in NZ my ass! Maybe if you counted air-rifles (and soft air guns LOL).

Don't argue with me. It is a website quoting figures from your own gov't. Maybe you're not as safe as you think you are?

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #41 on:** February 04, 2004, 05:35:30 PM »

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Originally posted by Vulcan
Whereas here most robberies, rapes etc do not end in a murder.

That's how it is in the states too. I think you watch too much TV.

lazs2 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 05, 2004, 08:42:24 AM »

vulcan... you are being silly... rape and robbery are considered crimes that we would like to defend against even if the rapist/robber were to say thank you afterwards. I am not about to try to decide what it going on in his head.

NZ is not the states. What country borders NZ? bunch of whitebread boys stuck on a small island ain't gonna cause much trouble now are they?

if you could make all the guns dissapear in the U.S. you would have much more crime...

What makes any of you believe that by disarming the weak and telling the strong that they are in no danger when they commit crimes that you will make things better or safer??

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #43 on:** February 05, 2004, 08:49:19 AM »

rpm... I may have been to more gun shows than you... I went to em when you could legally just buy the gun and walk out with it... I see no more problem with this than a criminal asking his drug dealer for a dime bag and "oh.. by the way... one of them black guns that I can hold sideways to shoot too"

I don't see your point... if gun shows are selling guns leagaly then what law will stop the criminals from selling guns illegaly in the parking lot and.... why is that worse than an alley or a bar?

lazs

Curval · « **Reply #44 on:** February 05, 2004, 09:12:58 AM »

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Originally posted by GtoRA2
RPM
Guns are not the problem in any of the things you posted. Stupid owners are.

Every case above could have been prevented by proper storage or training

Stupid people will find stupid ways to hurt themselves.

How many babied babies die in bathtubs? How many people die from no seatbelts?

People can be dumb, you can't save them from that. Nor should you try by taking away my freedom

Gto...maybe you should call Leslie stupid...to his face.

Oppps...

Accidents happen...even with guns...and people trained to use them.

This isn't in any way an arguemnt to ban guns in the US...like Vulcan I feel I have no right to do so. But do not suggest that someone is stupid because an accident happened.