Author Topic: How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...  (Read 2998 times)

Offline FOGOLD

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2004, 02:59:51 PM »
I think the right to bear arms stuff is insane. Every study shows that the ready availabilty of firearms leads to more homicides.

As for the argument that guns don't kill people, people do.. well nutters without guns cane be dangerous, nutters with ready access to automatic weapons are lethal.

As far as I'm concerned the ownership of firearms outside military, poss police (not in uk as a matter of course) and hunters/pest control people is insanity of the highest order and asking for big trouble.

Yes I am a liberal:D

So no, the firesarms laws in UK are not too strict. They are probably about right, as the police can refuse a firearms licence WITHOUT having to justify it. It is a privelige, not a right.

By the  way, I am a farmer who owns a double barrel 12 bore shotgun and a .22 rifle. I shoot game and rabbits etc. None of that affects what I say above.

Offline Tarmac

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2004, 03:27:04 PM »
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Originally posted by Tilt
Fire arms are not an emotive issue to the average Brit. The great bulk of the population have never touched one........never mind wanted one.

To turn a Texan saying on its head................."its a Brit thing you probably wouldn't understand"


Interesting little story about Brit vs. American gun culture that I've probably told before here, but I'll tell it again anyway.  

I was at the Thames Valley (UK) Police HQ a year and a half ago, on an all-access tour as part of my studies.  We spent two days there, examining a lot of the everyday operations of UK police.  Part of our tour on the first day was of the Firearm Response Vehicles (normal UK police don't carry guns).  

My group (8 Americans) went down to the garage, and had a half hour introduction by two firearms officers.  They ran through some common situations that they are called out for, how they respond, showed us their vehicle, equipment, and tactics.  

Interestingly, handguns are strictly backup weapons for them.  If they go, they go all-out with MP5's, body armor, the whole bit.  

One of the officers, after checking the gun's chamber, held an MP5 out to me.  Naturally, I took it and shouldered the weapon, making sure to observe all the rules for safe firearm handling that I'd been taught.  

I looked up and noticed the two officers exchange glances, then both burst out laughing.  I'm thinking, "Crap, what did I do?"  I didn't point the gun in an unsafe direction at any time, finger was outside the trigger guard, etc.  

Before I could ask what was so funny, one of the officers looked at me and said something like "Only an American.  No Brit would have touched that, let alone have the first idea what to do with it."

It was, to say the least, an enlightening experience.

Offline Stoned Gecko

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2004, 04:11:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by FOGOLD
I think the right to bear arms stuff is insane. Every study shows that the ready availabilty of firearms leads to more homicides.
 


And I'm assuming that the criminals are going to obey those laws and not purchase illegal weapons, right?

Is there a study that shows an increase in homicides commited with a legally purchased weapon by the owner? Let's exclude accidents and self defense. I'm talking about pure intended murder where a person used a weapon that he/she legally owned and that person would not have commited that crime (i.e. seek illegal firearm or used another weapon) if the firearm had not been legally available.

Offline lazs2

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2004, 10:58:06 AM »
all studies show that crime and homicides go down when more people are allowed to have guns.... the more guns available the less crime... the worst that can happen is that crime and homicides remain unchanged.  

In england, up untill 1902 the people were allowed to carry firearms.  A good book to read is "guns and violence the english experiance"  by Joyce Lee Malcolm

Australia was allways a heavily armed country and with moderate crime... certainly homicides were no worse than most...  one incident was all the women and panic mongers needed to disarm an entire country... no proof it would do any good... just good common womanly sense and liberal fear....

most estimates put the increase in australian crime at between 20-40% since the disarming of it's populace.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2004, 01:12:29 PM »
Lazs,

folks were allowed to carry guns in any society at some point. There were no rules governing firearms before firearms themselves were invented, just as there was no law against driving down a city street at 100mph in the year 1750. :rolleyes:

What happened is that as problems started to rear their ugly heads, laws were introduced to contain the situation.

England was "disarmed" in 1902 you say? I wouldn't know. I remember having to sit at my grandmother's tea table every Friday afternoon in the 1950s while she and my great aunts (and sometimes the great uncles) nattered about this and that for a couple of hours. Can't ever remember a conversation lamenting the "disarmament" of Britain though. So can you tell me what proportion of the public was armed up until 1902? My guess is 0.1% or less. So why the "disarmament"? Probably because we didn't want to end up like America with its "Wild West" of the 1880s. Most people who live in unarmed societies are quite happy with the status quo. My thread includes a list of no fewer than fifteen countries from which people voted on this BBS not to have an unrestricted supply of weapons into their countries.

Dunno about Australia - but I remember your debate with SC-Spook. :lol Australia probably had more than a moderate amount of crime, considering the punishment for some hardened criminals in Britain was "Transportation". The convicts would be transported to Australia, under penalty of death should they try to return to Britain. Not many did. It was a long way home, and most seemed to like the weather out there, and adapted to a life of sheep farming. The Australian expression "pommy" (US equivalent = "limey") was, I believe, derived from P.O.M.E. - Prisoners Of Mother England.

The fictional character Magwitch in the Charles Dickens novel, "Great Expectations" succeeded in returning to Britain having been transported to Australia, and was sentenced to be hanged, but died before sentence could be carried out...
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most estimates put the increase in australian crime at between 20-40% since the disarming of it's populace.

Offline vorticon

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2004, 01:24:15 PM »
other than the silly gun registry...they seem fine


if someone wants to kill someone else there gonna do it...with or without a gun...guns merely make the homicide easier...

laz...when was the last time you used a gun for something other than plinking or hunting???

Offline Curval

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2004, 01:34:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tarmac
Before I could ask what was so funny, one of the officers looked at me and said something like "Only an American.  No Brit would have touched that, let alone have the first idea what to do with it."

It was, to say the least, an enlightening experience.


lol...if you told it before I don't remember the story...but it is a great one.  :)

So true too.

Our little regiment required everyone to be able to shoot their issued weapons so when I was a section comander it was up to me to teach 12 guys everything about their rifles.  Most of my guys were tough talking street "dudes", but as soon as I put a loaded weapon in the hands of probably the "toughest" of the bunch his hands shook like a grandma.  :)  He was really freaked out by it.

I really hope this place stays the same in this regard.
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain

Offline Tarmac

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2004, 02:19:18 PM »
Funny that I spent a month and a half there studying, and those are the things that stick in my head.  All the classroom stuff about the legal system and history is way in the back of my memory, but the pub discussions of guns, governments, and socialism (there was a socialist convention at the University of London at the same time we were there) are fresh in my mind.  

Plus, there were bars in the police stations.  How bloody civilized!  :)

Offline Swager

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2004, 08:24:22 PM »
Too strict!!

I have two revolvers that I have not registered yet.  If I ever use them for home protection, I could get arrested.  Total BS
Rock:  Ya see that Ensign, lighting the cigarette?
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Offline beet1e

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2004, 05:57:57 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
all studies show that crime and homicides go down when more people are allowed to have guns....  
Come on Lazs, you can't be that obtuse! Just compare the US and UK. Fewer than 100 gun related homicides here in any year. And in the US, there's never been a year when there were fewer than 5,000. And it's on the increase. Let's hope it doesn't get back to 1992 levels, when more than 13,000 people in the US were victims of gun related homicide. And that figure does not take into account the deaths arising from accidental discharges. More guns = more deaths. FFS!  What more proof do you want?

Tarmac! Just remind me... was it Reading nick that you visited? Did the Police ever complain that they were overstretched? That's the problem here. Too few police and too lenient sentencing for serious crimes. That's why British crime levels are as high as they are. Anyway, call me thick, but I wasn't sure what point you were trying to make about the gun being thrust into your hands here.

:confused:

Time to bring back the gun sig...
_____________________________ ____

  • America’s constitutional right to bear arms is an anachronism dating back to the 18th century. In modern times, it is an unmitigated disaster which has given rise to many millions of privately owned guns and an alarming homicide rate, with a tally of more than 300,000 firearms related homicides in the past 25 years. While no law can be 100% effective, Britain has no “gun culture”, and much stricter firearms controls which have contained the annual tally of gun related homicides to a double digit value - fewer than one fiftieth of the American gun-related homicide rate per 100,000 population.
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Offline lazs2

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2004, 10:28:35 AM »
beetle.... you can't be that obtuse...  I am saying that when guns are outlawed in uk countries the crime goes up or stays the same... it doesn't go down... your simple minded knee jerk solutions make things worse not better...  the same happens over here...  you can't compare the uk with the U.S. tho because they are not even in the same part of the world... they don't have the same ethnic makeup and the U.S. is not as socialist.   You don't share similar borders..

How do you explain australia tho?  That would be a lot closer to the say... U.S. midwest.   When U.S. states adopt right to carry laws their crime goes down... when australia cracks down on legal firearms and the right of their citizens to defend themselves the crime goes up.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2004, 05:40:36 PM »
Lazs,

Forget trends, forget your own propaganda, and focus on the facts. Refer to my previous post. At least 50 times more gun homicides in the US than in the UK in any year you care to name.

Offline NUKE

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2004, 05:45:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
Lazs,

Forget trends, forget your own propaganda, and focus on the facts. Refer to my previous post. At least 50 times more gun homicides in the US than in the UK in any year you care to name.


why not just focus on all homicides and then tell us if the rate is higher or lower after gun bans?

Offline NUKE

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2004, 05:47:42 PM »
What is the leading weapon used in homicides in the UK right now? If that weapon was banned, do you think that would change the homicide rate?

Offline Nashwan

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How many feel that their countries gun laws are too strict...
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2004, 06:03:14 PM »
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What is the leading weapon used in homicides in the UK right now?


Kitchen knife.

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If that weapon was banned, do you think that would change the homicide rate?


Yes because we'd all starve.