The Best Fighter Aircraft of all Time

[Overlag]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Overlag,

If that is you feel then great. But don't come out with American and Israel are aggressive.

No more aggressive than the world they live in.

true....

[F4UDOA]

Batz,

That's some impressive research? Did you go to J.Gerberls.com?

Really? 13 Lebonese airliners destroyed? Do you even know what that incedent was? Did you know that there was nobody on board? Do you know what the Hagana is?

You forgot the Jenin massacre, they claimed thousands dead but there were only 50. Once again those brave freedom fighters hiding behind woman and children using ambulances to moves guns as they have been sighted for for years. Of course the mighty nations of Europe give lip service and money to the Billonare Arafat so he can starve his own people. It is all illegal as defined by UN law but the UN has never held a single sanction against the Palestinians for any of it.

Besides you must be a little confused. I thought the British put all the Jews there in 1948. What are those 1931 and 1936 dates there for? Could it be that they were there before 1948? Of maybe they were refugees from concentration camps displaced by your hero? Funny I don't see you screaming about uprooting Germans or Poles from their home to put Jews back?

750,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians evicted from there homes? Really? There weren't that many people living there at the time. The entire state of Israel as it is today is only as big as the state of New Jersey with approx 9,000,000 people their today including ARAB Muslim citizens that vote and live in a democracy? Where they hold political office and serve in the military.

What do you think the entire population of Jerusalem was at the time? Mark Twain desribed the area as being abandoned and desolate during his visit in the late 1800's. Was he a "Zionest "too?

By the 19th Century, A Desolate LandThe Turkish Ottoman Empire ruled much of the Middle East and southeastern Europe from 1516 to 1917. The Ottomans divided it into twoadministrative zones. In the 1880s, when the Zionistmovement began, Palestine’s sparse population was less than 300,000. Today, over nine millioninhabitants live on that same land.As a result of the devastation wrought by succeedingconquerors, centuries of Ottoman neglect, clan feuds,malarial mosquitoes and other maladies, in 1867Mark Twain characterized Palestine as a “desolatecountry whose soil is rich enough, but is given overwholly to weeds – a silent mournful expanse...”Other travelers to Palestine throughout the 19thcentury reported similar conditions.  

The entire list of dead doesn't account for the amount of Israeli dead from Arab attacks in the last few years from attacks against strictly civilian targets.

Also

1. Where are the Jewish suicide bombers? It must have slipped your mind.

2. Post pictures of dead Arab children? I already did. They are dressed as suicide bombers at 5 years old. They are the living dead that never had a chance to live or make a choice.

Your point of view is as obvious as the Austrian paper hanger you love so much.

What did your beloved third Reich do with Civilians and children? How about there own children? Put them in uniforms and send them to die? They have much incommon with the Palestinians. Maybe that is why you identify with them so much. Maybe you have a small child do your fighting to.

BTW, What is your country of origin? You don't like to show much of yourself do you?

Here is a little fact to go with your version of history. What was the Arab excuse in 1929?

For some time, the 800 Jews in Hebron lived in peace with their tens of thousands of Arab neighbors. But on the night of August 23, 1929, the tension simmering within this cauldron of nationalities bubbled over, and for 3 days, Hebron turned into a city of terror and murder. By the time the massacres ended, 67 Jews lay dead and the survivors were relocated to Jerusalem, leaving Hebron barren of Jews for the first time in hundreds of years.

[GScholz]

F4UDOA, let me guess ... you're Jewish right?

[F4UDOA]

Dude,

Your good.

See if you can guess what Batz is?

[GScholz]

Thought so. Really the only thing that could explain such a level of bias.

I have no idea "what" Batz is, but I'm reasonably sure he's an American. Don't think he's Jewish though.

[F4UDOA]

Gsholz,

I am not going down this road with you too.

I am not on these message boards to defend myself and my people against those whom I would never meet.

Although I would realy like to meet some of them.

Here is a quote even you might appreciate.

I guess that old Golda Meir quote really plays out:
"There will be peace when the Arabs love their children more than they hate others."

Of course this is not true for all Arabs.

[Overlag]

Originally posted by GScholz
Thought so. Really the only thing that could explain such a level of bias.

well said

[Batz]

Quote where I typed "suicide bomber", your Zionists warriors weren't that brave.

Quote where I typed that any life was lost when the brave Zionist blew up 13 Lebanese airliners.

Quote where I said British put all the Jews in Palestine in 1948.

Quote where I made any mention of the modern situation in Palestine.

Quote where I mentioned Jerusalem.

Your pointless ranting aside I think you need to spend time on your reading comprehension.

F4UDOA, let me guess ... you're Jewish right?

Ya think?

Your point of view is as obvious as the Austrian paper hanger you love so much.

Typical ad hominem for his type. He has trouble dealing with the facts so he resorts to playing "victim", name calling and the token crying out of "you Golly-geened Nazi bastards!!!"

He has always been quick on the "personal attack". I am waiting for him to type out "I have data damn it!!!"

I have made numerous replies in which I stated exactly where I am from. Go earn your junior ADL badge and do a little search.

[GScholz]

Originally posted by F4UDOA
Gsholz,

I am not going down this road with you too.

I am not on these message boards to defend myself and my people against those whom I would never meet.

Although I would realy like to meet some of them.

No, me neither. You'll have to walk alone on this one. I would think "your people" would be the American people? After all it is not American Jews that are being accused of atrocities. Anyways, I don't think the Israelis are the bad guys and the Palestinians are the good. There are good and bad people on both sides on that confict, and apart from the kids that get killed by nail-bombs on busses and in coffee shops, and by missiles and bombs in the streets of Gaza ... it is getting exceedingly difficult to tell the good guys from the bad these days.

I'd love you meet with people here too. There's nothing like a good debate over a drink or two.

[LAWCobra]

Clowns! WTF does this have to do with airplanes?

[Overlag]

Originally posted by LAWCobra
Clowns! WTF does this have to do with airplanes?

well you see, someone said no one went to war with america because they had F15's, which i found really funny for a start......

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by GScholz
The Nigerian civil war. Here's an old post of mine on the subject:

Sidewinders on cessna type planes, I like this Rosen guy.

Found some more stuff bout these guys, this is particulary appropriate to AH...

http://www.geocities.com/equipmentshop/killerbees3.htm

"Martin Land had a bad moment when his Minicoin lost altitude and was forced to touch down along the runway before regaining flying speed. But while his plane was on the ground Lang fired rockets into two parked planes, one of them a MiG."

[Knegel]

Originally posted by Widewing
Knegel dreamed: "you wrote that Kozhedub himself told that he had more than the counted kills "

I never made any such statement. Granted English is not your primary language, but if you wish to converse in English, at least have the minimal comprehension skills required.

Do you wish a list of Historians? Could you verify their conclusions if you had such a list? Or, are you just whining?

Soviet over-claiming was horrendous, and it wasn't confined to the lesser pilots. Virtually every Japanese ace has had their totals reduced, some by more than half. Why? Because the records of enemy losses don't support the claims.

Do your own research.. Prove me incorrect.

My regards,

Widewing

Hi,

ok, you wasnt the one who originaly posted the Kozhedub statement, but you did refer to it and had it as quote in your post(so at least you took it into your post) and since you disagree with him, he must be a liar in your eyes.

My english maybe isnt that good, but i can see what you wrote and with a translator i also can understand it.

To call a soldier a 'Overclaimer' (liar), in my opinion need  exact  facts with a good source, they did fight for their country and deserve more respect i think.  
Even if all russian pilots together has overclaimed 50%, its a poor manner to say that a special pilot, who say he had more kills than the official kills, isnt  credible('.........there isn't a single aviation historian who believes he actually shot down much more than half that number').
If you say so, YOU should offer your sources, or you count as not credible and as a person without manner.

'Do your own research.. Prove me incorrect.' is a incredible poor tool to cover your opinion, if you have datas, offer them, if not, its realy only a shameless offered insultive opinion.

I realy wonder who shot down all the german planes(roundabout 30.000 109´s, 15.000 190´s
 and many 110´s, Ju87s, 88s, He111´s etc).  As far as i know most of them got shot down over the eastfront,  and there are not that many russian Aces with high scoring.

I only know that the german Aces had the highest respect to the guardsquads, so why i should doubt that a russian Ace can get more than 60 kills, if i can believe that many german aces got more than 100 and also the finnish Aces had much more and specialy if US-pilots with much less fights and much less oponents got 30kills.

Of course, if i would see some facts(for now i couldnt find any), i also be able to change my opinion.


Greetings, Knegel

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Knegel
Hi,

ok, you wasnt the one who originaly posted the Kozhedub statement, but you did refer to it and had it as quote in your post(so at least you took it into your post) and since you disagree with him, he must be a liar in your eyes.

Knegel, you aren't even a good troll....

Over-claiming was common. It was especially rampant with the Soviet Union and Japan (both IJNAF and JAAF). That does not make the pilots liars. Whimsical requirements for confirming kills, plus the absolute need by local commands to inflate scores were the primary reasons for extraordinary claims. However, you can bet your thick skull that there were examples of unscrupulous pilots who did lie about claims, and they could be found in every air force.

Now, if you have nothing else to offer...Sod off.

My regards,

Widewing

[MiloMorai]

I would like to know how VVS fliers could claim a kill if the wreckage could not be found, for this was a requirement for confirmation.