Small Maps – a Creeping Process. Hmmm…

[nopoop]

I like the fight. I've had GREAT fights on ALL the maps. But with the smaller maps they happen more often.

So the preference for smaller maps is a givin. But Festers map is proof that it can be done with a larger map.

[lazs2]

zazen said it pretty well... the radar is pretty useless on the big maps with far fields if you want to find a fight... when you leave your base the dar is one thing but by the time you get there it is either gangbang or be ganbanged... if you are in a slow plane you will simply have a dozen guys chasing you home no matter what.   A dozen guys who never really fight so are desperate to shoot something...  A dozen guys who would be running if the fight was 1 on 1 or even 5 on 4. in their favor.

lazs

[beet1e]

Originally posted by lazs
the big maps still take longer to reset so we have more time on the big maps than any of the small maps.   A lot of people hate the pizza map but it is up more than any small map... probly more than any two small maps combined.  It has made a lot of people loose interest in AH.

You say that a lot of people hate the pizza map. What is your basis for that judgment? The BBS? Hardly a source of data for an objective assessment, given that only a tiny minority of players visit this BBS. Still, objective polling is not your strongest suit.

As for the other things you said, you've chosen an interesting week to say them! Pizza was reset on Sunday night, since when we've had Baltic. Pizza does get whined about a lot, but who by, and what proportion of the player base do the whiners represent? I bet it's no more than about 2% at the most.

I'm personally very frustrated by the current map rotation, and the fact that has been made to lean more and more towards small maps. This week has been a classic example of a creeping process that has occurred over a period of months. I had a session upping from the CV to go to a field where there was 3-way battle going on. The knits were defending with Spits and LA7s; the Bish had a CV there and had LVTs on the beach. - was able to kill bucketloads of Spits and LA7s but at that early stage of the tour, the ranks have not become established and idiots were in command of the CV, turning and turning and turning... must have died about 6 idiot deaths taking off and landing, other than that it was an OK session...

... but whereas some may enjoy the shoot-em-up arcade gameplay from time to time, it gets old very very quickly. I logged on yesterday and saw Baltic was still up - and immediately logged off again. I did the same thing today. I am frustrated and bored. Pizza map has made a lot of people lose interest in AH you say? Hmmph, these small maps have sure seen my interest wane. And I'd be surprised if I was alone in that.

We used to be guaranteed a full week of each map, although the small maps were considered as one set for that purpose. Then we got another week of small maps added into the cycle.

And now with that mass reset exercise that seems to take place every Sunday, the rest of the week becomes a small map week. We've gone from having 20% of the time being allocated to the original small maps to a situation where almost 50% of the time is allocated to a small map. I used to think that the mass reset was to get rid of a large map because it was unpopular. But I've even seen Fester's original map despatched in this fashion.

Oh well, let's see what happens on Friday. Perhaps Fester's Oztralia/Lazsmania map will come up. If not it will be Big Isles. That will get reset to the SFMA small map on Sunday night which may hang around all week. Next will be Trinity, but then the week after that is small maps all week...

...Beam me up, Scotty...

[lazs2]

Oh , I see... one week each of the really bad maps like pizza and then one week for all the other small maps combined is considered fair and equal to you?

pizza is up more than any small map or even any two small maps.   judging simply by players online at peak hours.... the small maps are a little more popular than the pizza abortion at the least.

I can't imagine how awful the pizza is late at night or during euro times.

lazs

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lazs2
the big maps still take longer to reset so we have more time on the big maps than any of the small maps.   A lot of people hate the pizza map but it is up more than any small map... probly more than any two small maps combined.  
lazs

Complete nonsence.

If that were true then why as of last night have we had the same exact small map for the same exact amount of time (actually longer)as Pizza was up? And I havent checked but it may still be up for that matter. and minindodoo is typically up for at least 4 days at a time.

Even if it were true the big maps SHOULD take longer to reset simply because they are bigger maps.

Small maps are ok if all you want to do is force a large furball.
Problem is is not EVERYONE wants to be in a massive furball ALL the time. Let alone be forced into it.
Larger map like pizza do seem more geared to the folks that like smaller engagements. And the other aspects of the game. Furballs can still be found on the big maps easily enough even on Pizza but they are typically not of the massive scale you see on the small maps.

Problem is both points of view feel like they are being forced to play a style they do not like When one type of map is up or another. And each thinks the other are dweebs.
There is one solution either side can take, That being the other arenas. Problem is nobody wants to do that. Why?
Cause reguaredess of style prefrence everyone wants to be where the crowd is.
And that is understandable.
Only real solution I see is as I've said before.
To borrow a page from AW and set up a portion of each map that has fightertowns with unporkable or at least uncaptureable feilds.
Then both sides gets what they want and be where the crowd is.

[DREDIOCK]

Originally posted by lazs2
Oh , I see... one week each of the really bad maps like pizza and then one week for all the other small maps combined is considered fair and equal to you?

pizza is up more than any small map or even any two small maps.   judging simply by players online at peak hours.... the small maps are a little more popular than the pizza abortion at the least.

I can't imagine how awful the pizza is late at night or during euro times.

lazs

I agree I've noticed that too.
But I've also noticed the number drop is a relitively small fraction per country.
Maybe 10% tops though usually not that much even.

A week is too long for ANY map. i Love pizza map but by the end of a week even Im tired of it.
3 days is too small. Im thinking 4 days each map reguardless of size. I can tolerate any map for 4 days. Even Minindodoo.
THAT I think would be fair. And perhaps alternate Large base small base.

I wouldnt be at all dissagreeable to one other addition either.
that being daily resets on each map. Not to a different map  but back to the same map.
Reguardless of which map you is your favorite. Its gotta be disheartening to log on and finally after a long wait see YOUR favorite map in rotation only to see you've been hoarded down to 3 or 4 bases already.

[Zazen13]

The problem with pizza map and large maps in general is...There are more bases to defend along a line with either enemy country than there are players to defend them. So, what happens is, the majority of the people attack undefended bases rather than face significant opposition. Makes sense really, why devote resources to attack one defended base when there's 5 others, totally undefended, ripe for the picking? On a small map however, each base is precious as there are fewer of them, therefore people tend to defend them vehemently and in doing so create great, persistant fights.

On a side note, bases on large maps (Fester's map being an exception) tend to have not only many more bases, but the bases are also much farther apart (Big Isles for example...shudders). This has the effect of exacerbating the fuel porking problem. Noone wants to fly 2 or 3 sectors to defend a base that will probably be captured by the time they get there. So, the domino effect of this is usually a milkrun of undefended bases by a swarm of enemy who pre-emptively pork fuel to 25% along the way.  On a small map there's usually 2 or 3 bases 1 sector or less from any other base making fuel porkage much less of a defensive problem and creating a situation conducive to an interesting and protracted fight.

So, from a fighter pilot's persepctive, you can see from my description why people tend to prefer the smaller maps. Simply put, they are just more fun per unit time. However, if you feel like rank whoring for a camp, you've got to LOVE pizza map, you can get as many base captures as you please, as most are totally undefended, and you can pork factory strats for points all day long because there is no chance of interception, almost as though you were playing offline by yourself . Pizza map is still insanely boring but makes for a really pretty rank

Zazen

[mars01]

Hey Zazen,

Gald to see youv'e joined the dark side and are making sense:D

WTG:aok


Your dead on above.  Base distance is a critical factor determining the choices people have regarding the way they want to fly.  

Fester has found a nice balance to accommodate everyone’s tastes.

I just wish those that can affect the maps would realize this and fix the maps where the choices are restricted.

[Toad]

A lot of players have pointed out that just fixing the incredible imbalance between the effort to destroy fuel and the effort to resupply fuel would make things much better.

It's simply redikulousnessity that one jabo can cause fuel damage that it takes 7 C-47's to fix.

Address that imbalance and you'd probably see a lot more resupply missions which would....... add targets.  

More fun for everyone!

[Docc]

Laz.......in case you haven't noticed.....Pizza has been on for 11 days THIS YEAR.....Mindanau has been for 19 days this year....in addition to all the other small maps.

Base distance on each map is just about equal except for Big Isles.....so distance to a fight should not be an issue.  However, the big maps give players more options and targets rather than be forced to play along a 3 or 4 base front.

I personally prefer the big maps, Pizza, Festerma, and Trinity in that order and log whenever I see Mindanau come up.

[A_Clown]

Excellent point, the only time I see anyone doing re-supply, its to HQ-

Of course- Buff perks are just 1 small step from being COMPLETELY worthless- maybe a new bomber--
A_Clown

[Toad]

Originally posted by Docc

Base distance on each map is just about equal except for Big Isles.....so distance to a fight should not be an issue.  

This is simply incorrect. I suspect, though, that if people read it often enough it will become "true".

HT specifies min and max distances between bases. Ask one of the map makers.

Some maps have the bases spaced near maximum and others don't. Further, it isn't just base spacing per se. For example, you could place a ton of VH's at close spacing in one area and it would make for extremely long flights between airfields. This is similar to the situation NB corrected in Trinity Mod 1A. He changed some VH's to AF's and the map was MUCH improved.

Last I heard, HT was advising map makers not to use max distance exclusively but to "shorten up" a bit to improve gameplay.

Field spacing makes huge differencs in gameplay. Especially considering the incredible imbalance between fuel distruction and resupply.

[Toad]

I think the AK's should do another map to illustrate.

Take the current pizza terrain and put just one airfield and one VH at the extreme edges of each of the three slices. Absolute maximum spacing. Then let that go into play for a week. Let's see who truly enjoys widely spaced fields and gangbangs.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by Zazen13
The problem with pizza map and large maps in general is...There are more bases to defend along a line with either enemy country than there are players to defend them. So, what happens is, the majority of the people attack undefended bases rather than face significant opposition. Makes sense really, why devote resources to attack one defended base when there's 5 others, totally undefended, ripe for the picking? On a small map however, each base is precious as there are fewer of them, therefore people tend to defend them vehemently and in doing so create great, persistant fights.  

Well, that's one point of view, and you're entitled to have it. But by forcing play to take place between fewer bases, we see the opposite problem - the long green bardar in one sector, and the long red one in the next sector.

It is apparent to me, after months/years of reading map whines, that it's no use trying to do what the furballers do, which is to try to convince folks that their favourite map design is the panacea to all gameplay woes, for all the reasons given.

But the very fact that these map debates have gone on for so long demonstrates one thing: Every map is going to be liked by some and disliked by others. NO map that is up at any time is going to be the favourite of everyone. I have learned to accept this.

So instead of trying to tweak existing maps, I say keep all the maps we've got and use all of them. All I ask is that the map rotation policy be balanced and fair.

Mr. Toad! Have you been at the 25-yo MacAllan again?! :cool:

[Zazen13]

One last thing, adding new maps is fine. But, we're reaching a point of diminishing returns with regard to map additions. What we really need is the REMOVAL of "Unsuccessfull" maps. Only in this way will the better maps get enough play time to really enhance the month to month experience of the average customer. Look three years into the future, say we have 15 maps now, some even better than some of the good ones we have currently, we're still going to have to endure Pizza and Big Isles for up to 2 weeks a camp...Why? I don't know. Clinging to these monstrous dinosaurs for sentimental reasons in the face of obvious customer disdain is both irrational and bad business.

Zazen