Author Topic: A question about HO's (Read 2009 times)

Jase · « **on:** February 25, 2000, 11:00:00 AM »

Were HO's used frequently in WW2 by fighters? Or were they considered to risky. I was just curious, thx

------------------
+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"

Ripsnort · « **Reply #1 on:** February 25, 2000, 11:10:00 AM »

It was a desired tactic by the LW against bomber formations, this in turn generated the B17G, with more guns in the nose.

Not sure about fighters, the many books that I've read, the HO was a 'last ditch effort to kill the enemy'.

------------------
Brian "Ripsnort" Nelson
++JG2++ ~Richthofen~ XO
(Formerly VF-101 Grim Reapers~Rip1~Warbirds~)
JG2 "Richthofen"

"Opfer mussen gebracht werden"
— Otto Lilienthal

[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 02-25-2000).]

Gramma · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2000, 11:21:00 AM »

About fighters, take a look: http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm
"When asked about his tactics he ( Paul Murphy of the 5th AF's 80th FS of the 8th FG ) replied, "We used the P-38 to its best advantage in one-pass shoot outs. We'd try to force 'em into head-ons cause they'd break or our firepower would tell on 'em and they'd just disintegrate. Except for the Tony. It was a more substantial airplane."

Gramma

Westy · « **Reply #3 on:** February 25, 2000, 11:29:00 AM »

Jase they were, a bit. I beleive in RL most pilots tried to avoid the HO because it was similar to "playing chicken". Someone WAS going to die.
The Axis pilots found that it as the best method against the B17's, P-38 pilots used it alot against the un armored Japanese planes as did P-47 and FW190 pilots against thier foes.
It occurs here in AH because there is no fear of death. HO's suck imo. I DO try to avoid them when I can.
And at the same time if I can't then I try to offer the bogy closing the same dish of lead they are trying to hand me. The ZOOM feature sure makes that easier.
The HO's that plain make my blood boil are the ones that occur to me as I am in a turn fight with a bogy or two and I'm trying to get a guns solution to thier six (or them to mine) but some jack prettythang decides to keep zooming thru the furball trying to HO people (or me in this case) for the kill. Skill in that? None at all. But it next to impossible to avoid those folks who use HO's as a tactic in those situations.

(um, ramble mode=off)

-Westy

MiG Eater · « **Reply #4 on:** February 25, 2000, 11:37:00 AM »

The famed "Thach Weave" used pairs of Wilcats to take alternating head-on passes on the more maneuverable but lightly armored Japanese Zeros.

Later in the war the Japanese were said to reverse this tactic when they couldn't catch the faster American airplanes for the traditional "six" shot. Instead of being able to maneuver to the flank of the American flights, they only had time to force a head on merge.

There are many great sequences from the gun camera film/video tapes (now widely available) that demonstrate how devastating head on passes could be.

MiG

[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 02-25-2000).]

Lephturn · « **Reply #5 on:** February 25, 2000, 11:37:00 AM »

Westy,

The situation you describe is NOT a head-on. A head-on is when the bogies are merging nose-to-nose and go for the shot by flying straight at the attacker. In the case you mention, the attacker is watching you turning with his buddies in a furball, and executes a BnZ attack. He's gonna try a deflection or snapshot at you, no matter what your angle to him. If you happen to turn your front quarter toward him he's still gonna press the shot if you are not very threatening to him. If you let him, he'd rather shoot you in the ass, I guarantee.

If you choose to turn and burn, don't be pissed because somebody comes and BnZ's ya out of the sky. It's the nature of the beast. How much skill it takes is not the issue, the guy BnZ ing the furball is playing it safer than you TnB types and likely has better SA than you do. He also likely has a plane not suited to getting into a TnB engagement, so don't expect him to. Don't blame him because you are a nice low and slow turning target.

Or should I say "don't blame me".

------------------

Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]

MiG Eater · « **Reply #6 on:** February 25, 2000, 12:35:00 PM »

Another example in the following link;

http://www.combatsim.com/htm/feb00/gunkill-2.htm

Look at Mihaly "Mike" Karotsonyi's comments regarding head-ons.

MiG

[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 02-25-2000).]

ygsmilo · « **Reply #7 on:** February 25, 2000, 12:45:00 PM »

Many times in a furball the HO that I make are more to get someone off of one of my guys 6. Usually not looking for a kill but to divert and give my teammate a chance to extend.

------------------
Milo

"A MiG on your 6 is better than no MiG at all"

JG2 "Richthofen"

TT · « **Reply #8 on:** February 25, 2000, 01:33:00 PM »

kThe endless HO,s in AH are due mostly to the range of the guns. I had a p51 start fireing at me from d1.5. I just had time to think, this must be a newbi, when my wing tip came off. A big lag no doubt, but AH is becomeing more of a line test than a flight sim. Its simple. If you have a better connect. You get the kill message.

Jase · « **Reply #9 on:** February 25, 2000, 02:10:00 PM »

Hmm that's unfortunate TT

I understand HiTech not wanting to adjust the damage model for decrease HO damage, but with variables like lag which are out of our control I think it would improve sim enjoyment. At least someone with a better connect would have to get on your six or get a snap shot off for a kill instead of using the HO lag move. I was just wondering, because virtually ever main arena fight here involes an constant HO's. I was just wondering if that was the way it was in WW2, every damn fight was just a HO fest like here. If it wasn't then, then it should not be now. The argument that "reality would be decreased with decreased damage from HO's" doesn't hold water IMO. The reality was in WW2 no one had little green or red icons to tell them who was who. I thought the goal of AH was to try and simulate as close as possible a real ww2 flight setting, where the planes abilities dictated tactics. If it was one HO after another in WW2, then I stand correted. If it was not, then sim-play should be adjusted to bring our fights more into line with the way fights REALLY were. I do love AH, and am not bashing it at all. It is the best sim out there, period. I would just like to fly one flight that was not HO after HO after HO.

------------------
+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"

Lephturn · « **Reply #10 on:** February 25, 2000, 02:41:00 PM »

Show me one film that illustrates this TT. I'm betting you can't. Go to my site and follow the links under the Lag discussion, specifically the one to Hoof's page.

The ammount of disparity in the distance is a function of the closure rate as well. So if you are going HO and both are fast, the difference is going to be MUCH greater, so start your evasives earlier. I start mine at D1.2 in most HO situations, but a high speed one I would start earlier.

------------------

Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/

"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 02-25-2000).]

Pongo · « **Reply #11 on:** February 25, 2000, 03:08:00 PM »

Jase.
I think it was quite common. I have read accounts of whole squadrons of spitfires going for the HO. I dont see how reducing the leathality will lessen the frequency though.. might it not have the opisit effect...
A good step I think is making the who killed who first stuff go away. HO gives a person in a 30% situation a 50% chance.. if it gave them a 5 % chance they would not adopt it as much...What really gets me is when the guys in the 80% favorible situation take the 50% chance....what are they thinking....

------------------
Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

Kieren · « **Reply #12 on:** February 25, 2000, 03:39:00 PM »

Aw, Jase.... what about our training arena excursions?

Duckwing6 · « **Reply #13 on:** February 25, 2000, 03:43:00 PM »

I do try to avoid head ons because they are risky .. but sometimes they are your only feasible tactic...

YOu have a bogie on your 6 who is catching up and you know you can't turn with it (Happens often for F4U) -> i try to get into a head on merge BEFORE he is so close that he'll turn with me and get's saddled up .. but well during this headon i'm usually trying to avoide a *direct* headon.

BUT

The Headons i consider as dweebish are those when a more manouverable plane that has the E advantage over you just abbrels right into your face.. i just can't understand those...

------------------

Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
Flight Officer "E" Flight
Skeleton Crew

Jase · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2000, 06:50:00 PM »

Hehe Kieren, after the standard Immel there is almost no way to avoid a HO on either side. The only way around it is to lesson the lethality of the HO shot. I and most of the guys I train with now turn off cannons to reduce the damage of the HO. The best way to kill someone spit to spit with only 303's is to actually outturn them and get on their six. Imagine that concept..Huh.

------------------
+Jase ^Nomads^ AH
Fly-Nomadic
"To Everything Turn..Turn..Turn"