Originally posted by banana:
It seems to me that on this BBS, we have many people who are trying to get us to "see the light" and see the LW pilots as human beings, and not as puppets of Hitler's regime. For this, I salute them. Those LW pilots were indeed human beings with mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, and children. Most, if not all of them, were highly educated and intelligent. Regular people, like you and me.
Granted, the LW pilots of WW2 fought bravely and valiantly to save their country from destruction. I admire their skill and tenacity in the face of overwhelming odds.
So far ,so good. Up to this point I have nothing to disagree with.
But, think about the cause they were fighting for. Hitler, and therefore Germany, were out to enslave the world. So, how can you say that the German LW was simply there to defend Germany, when in fact they were used as instruments of agressive war? Sure, they eventually did end up only trying to defend German soil, but that's only after most of the rest of the world banded together to stop them.
I know that someone has to play the Germans in AH, or we wouldn't be able to have historical fights. In fact, I like flying the German planes. But, there are some here who have gone to the next level, and seem to worship the LW pilots, and what they stood for.
We all know that the LW pilots were very dedicated to their country, if not their leaders. One thing I've never heard about in all these discussions, was whether the pilots of the LW supported the goals of the German high command or the government? Did Galland or Moelders or Hartmann think it would be good to conquer England and Russia?
I have my own opinions about these questions, and I think you can probably figure out what they are. But, I'm willing to listen and learn.
As I strap on my flame-retardant jumpsuit, I simply ask that you keep the discussion to the real issues, and don't use personal attacks. I'll try to do the same.
Sorry but this is IMHO an unfair argument.In 1930s germany had the OBLIGATORY militar service. so you HAD to go to the armed forces for a while ,regardless you wanted it or not.
Other thing was to be a career officer. When you chose to be a militar, you give an oath. An oath that consist in obeying orders from superiors, to stand and defend your country's interests...but you DONT choose those interests. Germany had a long long tradition of military rules, the prussian military code was very present in wehrmatch and,by extension, in all German armed forces in 1939.
In 1939 Hitler started a war of agression. I repeat HITLER started a war of agression. Not the man who had to go in the van of the german forces over Poland, France or Norway. HITLER. The militar machine obeyed, as it was their chief of state who had to chose what was the best for the country. In spain we have a sentence for this:
"donde manda capitan no manda marinero"
or
"where the Captain rules, the sailor has nothing to say"-------->more or less ,not literal translation.
Here is the same. Hitler ordered the attacks, and the german OKW followed his orders. THere was a lot of concern in 1939 as the high officers knew that Germany wasnt in a good condition to start a war. Even France invasion succeeded because a plan designed by Manstein (and one wich credit went for hitler) and that most german generals felt it was nothing but a suicide. Still they obeyed. THey were german army officers and they had to follow their leader's orders.
Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine saw the same thing. Luftwaffe officers had very personal views about Goering's qualities to be their high commander (the laugh between LW pilots about the Grand Cross awarded to goering by hitler after France Campaign was apocalyptic). In fact all of them knew that Goering was a sick morphine addict, uncapable of commanding anything. Still they followed his orders, because,sick or not, their duty was to follow their high commander's orders.
After France Hitler earned divine reputation in Germany (Goebbels did his work very well, that for sure), but between army circles there was a quite ironical view about his qualities as strategic mind. Dunkirk fiasco was only responsability of Hitler and Goering, because when the advance was stopped, there was only a battallion opposing 2 panzer divisions. When the attack was restarted, there was a tight defensive circle around the port and beaches.
In 1941 KM Bismarck and KM Prinz eugen found HMS Hood and HMS Prince of Wales. The story is very well known, in their 4 or 5th salvo, Bismarck blew Hood up. What is less known is that PoW,having suffered a terrible hit in the conning tower, came to less than 10.000 yards of Bismarck and P.E., amd that when it was realized that the ship wasnt able to keep the fight, it turned away between a smoke layer. Anyone commanding Bismarck would have followed and finished the battered PoW. But Lutjens had strict orders from Hitler of not pressing combat against enemy battleships, regardless the situation, so instead of using his better speed to kill PoW, he left her move away. Lutjens was a convinced antinazi, still he obeyed a clearly faulty order.
In BoB german fighters were ordered to stay close to their escorted bombers. While it may have saved many bombers, it gave RAF a big relief in the worse moment, too. No JG commander agreed with that order, still they obeyed.
The only german commander that I know who jumped over the orders was Erwin Rommel in 1941. After reconquering all cyrenaica except Tobruk, Runstedt asked Hitler to court martial him, because he had not followed the orders issued to him!!! (to stay in the defensive). Rommel was hitler's favorite general and so,and because his stunning success, he saved his skin...but very narrowly.
In summer 1941, Guderian and Hoth Panzer armies were running towards Moscow with few oposition left after Smolensk. Hitler ordered the panzer armies to stop their advance over Moscow and then he ordered Hoth to go North to assist the siege of Leningrad and Guderian to go South to assist the kiev pocket. Both things were a mosntruous mistake, for the panzer forces had little to aport to those operations and Moscow was the vital centre of USSR defense (politic centre, communications centre, and railroad centre). Guderian actively called for an advance over Moscow, but Hitler's directive was clear. He obeyed, still knowing that it could seal the fate of the attack on the USSR...as happened. In december 1941 German advance stalled on the suburbs of moscow after 2 months of infernal fighting to win a land that could have been won at a much lesser cost only 6 weeks before.
What do I want to say with all this?...that when Germany was in the offensive the civil population had Hitler in an altar. Goebbels did all he could (and was a lot) to make it true. But the german armed forces,at least the high circles, knew they were leaded by a foolish pseudostratega. They were officers,still, and they had to follow their duty. And they did it.
The foot soldier knew the same as the civilian, what propaganda told him. Still I am quite sure that they would have been much happier in their home town with their girfriends, instead of being in Hot North Africa, cold Russia, or Partisan-full Greece or yugoslavia.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 08-28-2000).]
