Originally posted by Karnak:
The way I see it is that the Allied bombings of Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo and Osaka were a mistake, but....
The Allies (US and UK) were not trying to conquer another nation for evil purposes as the Germans were when they bombed Warsaw, London and Coventry or the Japanese were when they bombed Shanghai and other Chinese cities. The Allies were trying to end a war they hadn't asked for, using the tools they had and tactics they thought would shorten the war.
I just really really wish that we (as in the countrys involved in WWI) had responded to military build-up in central Europe. If that wasn't a big enough warning sign, you would think the initial invasions would of been. On the other hand, a military action and occupation of what would later become the European axis nations would of probably turned out much like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, etc. Perhaps even to a cold war extent, after all thats what happened afterwards.
The US would of been no help at the time, given our isolationist stand point. And I don't think the European nations would of banded togather to occupy anything anyway, because they would have no reason to (lack of self intrest) Er but thats what happened I guess.
This is kind of the American excuse for our questionable foreign policy; the fear of leaving things unchecked.
Here's a thought:
The Germans bombed London and Coventry to break British morale and the British were defiant.
The British and Americans REALLY bombed Hamburg, Dresden, Osaka and Tokyo (120,000 dead) to break the will of the German and Japanese people and the Germans and Japanese were defiant.
The Americans dropped Nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Japan surrendered.
Maybe the heavy bombing to break the will to fight wasn't wrong, but simply MUCH harder to reach than was thought. Maybe it took the blunt shock of Nuclear weapons to do it. The conventional weapons just didn't have enough "shock" punch.
I don't want to change this to a "should we have dropped them or not" discussion, but I want to address, briefly, my thoughts on that subject because I have mentioned Nuclear weapons.
I know that many, many lives, both American and Japanese, were save by those weapons. We had an invasion plan and, unlike the Germans, the Japanese knew exactly where we were going to land. The Japanese had fortified those points to the best of their ability, which was on par with what the Germans could have done had they known where we were coming. We estimated, conservativly, that we would incur one million American casaulties and inflict three to ten million Japanese casualties in the first part of the invasion.
I agree fully. The Japanese had already proven to everyone they would fight to the last to defend their home land. I cannot imagine how long the war would of drug on if such an invasion occured, and the countless number of Russian, American and Japanese lives that would of been lost in such a military action. And yet after, another place where Russian and US troops would of met for an occupation, recreating something much to the extent of post-war Germany.
A further thought is that those two, horrifying events (and they are horrifying regardless of whether one thinks they should have been dropped or not), gave the world a preview of what Nuclear armegeddon held in store for us. The US and USSR didn't have to throw nukes at each other in 1962 to find out how horrible it was. We already knew. It wasn't some abstract concept. We KNEW what it would be like. Perhaps that knowlege saved humanity.
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I believe that is why there has never been any kind of nuclear strike. As stupid as the human race can be at times, I think the people at the top of the political chains in every nations realized "We shoot, WE (the guys giving orders) die" as opposed to the ol' "We shoot their soldiers, they shoot ours. Take some land. Count some bodies, and he who has the most wins, least we have a chance of living"
Any attack would equal the end. Least a few idjits figured out "If we don't attack we don't die! Cool!" (all from a nuclear holocaust prespective. To bad that wasn't figured out be aggressors everywhere.)
I pray to God that what we are discussing here never raises its spectre from the history books. Lets remember what happened and keep it in the past.
Never again.
Sisu
-Karnak
Unless gas prices get over 2 bucks. Er never again
- Jig
