Author Topic: Spain Popular Party Defeated (Read 3628 times)

bounder · « **Reply #45 on:** March 15, 2004, 02:24:45 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by GScholz
LOL! You act like terrorism is something new ... "The new big threat to civilization". Europe has been fighting terrorism for ages. Terrorism is not something that wil go away ... ever. You can only hope to deal with it as best you can without making it worse or becoming something worse yourself.

Indeed

Terrorism is not a problem that can be solved. It can only be managed.

CyranoAH · « **Reply #46 on:** March 15, 2004, 02:50:38 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by RRAM
Pathetic nation where I live. At least in that regard.

And I was losing hope in my fellow countrymen... not anymore.

RRAM, obviamente nuestros polos políticos son opuestos. Creo que ni las cosas irán tan mal como predices ni tan bien como yo espero, pero es que al fin y al cabo, PP o PSOE, todos son la misma mierda: "políticos".

Yo creo en la alternancia política, y estoy en contra de la mayoría absoluta, que me parece lo más antidemocrático que hay. Por mi, cada partido que tenga una legislatura. Así no se acomodan en el sillón y les da por abusar de su autoridad.

Daniel

Naso · « **Reply #47 on:** March 15, 2004, 03:27:04 AM »

I agree with Cyrano, RRam.

Let's see what they do.

I would like to have the same possibility here in my country, but with the "dictator" holding all the media, will be hard.

Delirium · « **Reply #48 on:** March 15, 2004, 03:34:19 AM »

Absolutely, Ra...

My best guess is that Spain will start making demands on the United States and other countries still involved; demands they know we can't meet and use that has an excuse to pull out. Maybe it will help them save face, but it will give the terrorists just the encouragement they are looking for.

I had hoped this attack on Spain would strengthen European resolve, instead it has encouraged 'ostrich' isolationism. Pity.

Quote

Originally posted by ra
Regardless of why the Spanish electorate's point of view changed since the bombings, this was a huge victory for terrorism. Terrorists can now claim that slaughtering civilians can change the outcome of an election. As Spanish troops start leaving Iraq, the terrorists will be able to claim credit. And I for one think they are correct. This election will cast a long shadow.

ra

gatt · « **Reply #49 on:** March 15, 2004, 03:36:05 AM »

You warguys know what is alternation in democracy, do you? They could be tired of ppl like Aznar and disagree with the Iraq war. You'll see what will probably happen in Italy as well after years of Mr Berlusconi and his "family" (apply the italian meaning). Euro countries have been fighting terrorism during the last 60 years, with rightist, centre or leftist governments.

ravells · « **Reply #50 on:** March 15, 2004, 07:13:06 AM »

Um, Storch, these were explosives hidden in backpacks. Nobody knew they were explosives until they detonated. What or who would the armed citizenry be shooting at under such circumstances? So I think we do know the answer to that one.

In the same way, the IRA rarely shot people in London, they mostly planted bombs. What good would an armed citizen be against that?

The way in which the IRA problem is being resolved is by constant dialogue and an attempt at forging some sort of understanding into how to get these people stop what they are doing. Frankly, if we had armed every citizen in Northern Ireland I think the place would have become (even more of) a bloodbath and Protestant / Catholic hatred even more entrenched.

There may be good reasons for owning guns, but stopping terrorists who plant bombs is not one of them.

Ravs

deSelys · « **Reply #51 on:** March 15, 2004, 07:23:04 AM »

Funny (to the 2nd degree) how some people still think that everything can be solved with war, or violence in general.

As my fellow european citizens have pointed out, terrorism is not new here. Maybe this is why we don't have a knee-jerk reaction after the Madrid bombings. If some of you think that Al-Quaeda has won because the spanish govt changed after elections planned well before the last week bombings, then they should realize that they had even a greater victory in the U.S. because:

- US reputation is at its lowest
- economy is crippled as a result of war in Iraq (which, if it was even aimed at Al-Quaeda in the 1st place, is a huge miss IMO).
- some democratic rights are cancelled/suspended
- normal life is regularly spoiled by rainbow coded threat levels (i.e. airports at Christmas 2003)
- almost every US citizen feels very insecure and see terrorists everywhere
...

War on Terror is absurd. Terrorism doesn't follow any of the war rules. The 'enemy' is within and invisible. You'll never win against terrorism by muscles, but you can control it by brains.

In the U.S. you started in the 80s the War on Drugs (if you think about it, there are a lot of analogies between a drug dealer and a terrorist...). Was the goal reached? How did it end? How do you handle the drugs problem now??

And this:

Quote

You have given up your right to self defense.

is not only pompous, it's deeply stupid.

Eagler · « **Reply #52 on:** March 15, 2004, 07:39:51 AM »

fwiw

99.5% of everything you listed in the above post is incorrect or false

what force exactly does Spain have in Iraq? 1200? what difference did those 1200 make to the terrorists? It isn't about Spains involvement in Iraq, it is about them siding at all with the US. Now they move away from US towards the likes of france

face it or not, the terrorists won with thier bombing and the victims died in vain

Shuckins · « **Reply #53 on:** March 15, 2004, 07:58:45 AM »

GScholz,

Terrorists aren't so devious and bloodthirsty that they can never be defeated. Study the history of the "Old Man of the Mountain" and his attempt to intimidate and blackmail the Mongols. He quickly fell victim to one of the most ruthless espionage/military campaigns to ever be launched against a "terrorist network." Eventually, some of his own henchmen killed him in an attempt to placate the Mongol leadership.

Shuckins

gatt · « **Reply #54 on:** March 15, 2004, 08:07:20 AM »

Eagler, one can be against terrorism and disagree the way you fight against it.

Same way one can be against communism and disagree the way you fight it. Think about South America. You know, we have friends still missing in Argentina and Chile.

Yeager · « **Reply #55 on:** March 15, 2004, 08:30:55 AM »

So if you kill a couple hundred spaniards on trians you can hold the whole Spanish nation hostage? Make an entire nation do whatever you want?

If true then I imagine the spaniards are cowards as a people

Europe has taken a huge blow. Terrorists have the upper hand now. All they have to do is kill a couple hundred frenchmen or germans and the wills of entire nations will be theirs.

Pitiful to see the continent once again on the verge of chaos.

Well......this time I say "let them burn"

CyranoAH · « **Reply #56 on:** March 15, 2004, 08:32:56 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Yeager
So if you kill a couple hundred spaniards on trians you can hold the whole Spanish nation hostage? Make an entire nation do whatever you want?

If true then I imagine the spaniards are cowards as a people

Europe has taken a huge blow. Terrorists have the upper hand now. All they have to do is kill a couple hundred frenchmen or germans and the wills of entire nations will be theirs.

Pitiful to see the continent once again on the verge of chaos.

Well......this time I say "let them burn"

Well, this time I can say, and I'm not friend of this kind of expressions:

Shut the **** up.

Daniel

Lance · « **Reply #57 on:** March 15, 2004, 08:42:32 AM »

Quote

The surprise victor in the election, Zapatero vowed that fighting terrorism would be his first priority as he sets about creating an administration "that will work for peace."

"Today, the Spanish people have spoken, and they said they want a government of change," he said in a victory speech.

Later Monday in a televised news conference the PM-elect said he had two priorities -- working with the outgoing government and mounting an attack on terrorism.

"I am going to fight the violence that also is attacking other nations in this world," he told reporters.

For that he was asking for the support of the Spanish people, he said.

"I want to create an alliance against violence and all kinds of terrorism," he said. "I don't want to create my own war."

On the troops, according to the party spokesman, Zapatero will take the Spanish contingent out of Iraq on June 30 -- the day the Coalition Provisional Authority is scheduled to turn over power to an interim Iraqi government.

The PM-elect has said Spanish troops should never have been in Iraq, because the was no U.N. resolution authorizing military action. Polls show up to 90 percent of Spaniards opposing the war in Iraq.

Sounds like he is intent on fighting terrorism, but that he thinks the Iraq war was/is the wrong way to go about doing it. Is it a victory for Al Qaeda? Maybe, but if it is, we pretty much handed it to them.

Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco? We put taking down AL Qaeda's leadership on the backburner to confront the "imminent threat" of Saddam Hussein, which turned out to be a joke. Had we used our military in Afganistan/Pakistan to the degree that we have in Iraq, we might have disrupted Al Qaeda enough to where such attacks could not have been carried out.

Its long past time we all start questioning whether we are being effectively led in the "war on terrorism".

1K0N · « **Reply #58 on:** March 15, 2004, 09:00:37 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by john9001
it is a clear victory for al Qaeda , you infidels can expect more bombings, the sword of allah will strike again , god willing.

OMG

Martlet · « **Reply #59 on:** March 15, 2004, 09:01:04 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by deSelys
Funny (to the 2nd degree) how some people still think that everything can be solved with war, or violence in general.

As my fellow european citizens have pointed out, terrorism is not new here. Maybe this is why we don't have a knee-jerk reaction after the Madrid bombings. If some of you think that Al-Quaeda has won because the spanish govt changed after elections planned well before the last week bombings, then they should realize that they had even a greater victory in the U.S. because:

- US reputation is at its lowest
- economy is crippled as a result of war in Iraq (which, if it was even aimed at Al-Quaeda in the 1st place, is a huge miss IMO).
- some democratic rights are cancelled/suspended
- normal life is regularly spoiled by rainbow coded threat levels (i.e. airports at Christmas 2003)
- almost every US citizen feels very insecure and see terrorists everywhere
...

War on Terror is absurd. Terrorism doesn't follow any of the war rules. The 'enemy' is within and invisible. You'll never win against terrorism by muscles, but you can control it by brains.

In the U.S. you started in the 80s the War on Drugs (if you think about it, there are a lot of analogies between a drug dealer and a terrorist...). Was the goal reached? How did it end? How do you handle the drugs problem now??

And this:

is not only pompous, it's deeply stupid.

Yes, Life is just absolute hell here. I'm thinking of moving to Cambodia