Author Topic: Spain Popular Party Defeated  (Read 3463 times)

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #60 on: March 15, 2004, 09:02:06 AM »
Who can blame the spanish people for thinking this US led war on terror is a fiasco?
====
Because of the attacks in Spain?  Why is this us led "war" a fiasco?  US has not had any attacks on soil since 9/11/01 and I am quite certain that was not the intent of AQ, from this perspective I can say "so far, so good".

Spain was apparently caught with its pants down.  What else could explain TEN bombs on commuter trains going off on same day?  The security in Spain does not look that good to me.  With troops OTG in Iraq I would have thought the spaniards would have been better prepared to detect and circumvent this sort of terror.

We will see how Spain figures out now but honestly, it does not look good from news coverage here.  It looks as if Terrorism has won in Spain.  Final analysis yet to be determined.

Dan, where I come from I can say and think whatever the hell I want.  Srry it offends you.  actually........
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

Offline deSelys

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« Reply #61 on: March 15, 2004, 09:04:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Yes, Life is just absolute hell here.  I'm thinking of moving to Cambodia


What does make you think they would accept you?
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

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Offline Martlet

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« Reply #62 on: March 15, 2004, 09:06:59 AM »
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Originally posted by deSelys
What does make you think they would accept you?


I'll move to Belgium, then.  It's plain they'll take anyone.

Offline deSelys

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« Reply #63 on: March 15, 2004, 09:10:48 AM »


Sorry about that. The thread was pretty civil until now, please carry on.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 09:17:23 AM by deSelys »
Current ID: Romanov

It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

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Offline Pepe

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« Reply #64 on: March 15, 2004, 09:10:58 AM »
As a firm believer in democracy, I think now is the time to drop the "election" climate and start again with our lives. It's crucial that we do it as soon as we can, and with as small anger as it is possible. Although I don't like the election outcome, I just congrat socialist voters. They won a legal election and, most likely than not, Zapatero will be our next president. I hope they do the best for all of us.

But while I think rotation is good for cleanliness in a democratic nation, as Spain is, and in this sense I don't think Socialist party is bad "per se" for us, I would like to point out some facts:

It is false, and a dirty lie, that the Popular Party "manipulated" "lied" or in any manner altered the truth or evaded the facts whatsoever with regards to the news arising from the blasts. The most credible assumption at the beginning was it was ETA's work, thus the first sentences about the bombing. After the van with the arabic tapes was found, the government just "left all hypothesis open for investigation", which is, in my mind, the logical thing to do, after claims on Al-Qaida groups about any possible catastrophe, accident or mass murder happening in western world.

It's only poor democratic praxis that the Socialists cried out and loud "not to use the killing politically" when It seemed it was ETA the responsible and, immediately when the van was found, cry out and loud (and I emphasize Immediately) that the government was lying about the whole stuff. If this is not using the killings on a political way, I don't know then what is the concept.

It comes to no surprise, but with certain degree of sadness, that alike their predecessors in 1930, leftists in this country tend to think that they are the only ones entitled to govern, the only ones that are real democrats, and that consevative parties are straight down fascists. I suppose, thanks to their education reforms back in the eighties, a great majority of people seem to accept this without any further question. Pity for Spain.

About the results themselves, I don't think it is inherently bad, but I'm pretty sure it comes too soon. Socialists made an "opposition" program, so I'm pretty sure they won't be able to comply with their promises. Never they could have thought the would win the election. Their economic team is really poor (if exists at all) and their recent political past record is not the one that makes me mostly confident about our future as a nation.

Even I think this is true, I won't be so cynical as to deny him the beneficial of the doubt.

With regards with Popular Party's 8 years mandate, I think It's been the best period overall since 1.975. And, overall again, Aznar has been the best leader we had. Serious and tough, certainly not a "loving" kind of guy, but a fantastic president. I hope Zapatero is, at least, as good as him.

Popular party made a wonderful task in economics, and put Spain on the side of the Global International scene where we should be. The only problem (which ultimately cost them the election) is the absolutely horrendous comunications and PR management.

Socialist, communist and, to some degree, independentist nationalist, favourites when critisizing Popular Party work are Prestige Spill, and Irak War. Being both Popular Party's successes, it's been perceived as big failures by the average spaniard. Why?....let me guess:



Prestige: A damaged Oil tanker ask permission to harbor the northern coast of Spain. The government, on seeing tanker's bad shape, refuses to give the go ahead and, instead, tows the shipt far away from the coastline, where it sank. It made a decission where whatever they decide would be critisized by the opposition. So they made what they judged right. At the very end, the consequences for the coastal waterline has been very light, compared with previous experiences (Urquiola, Polycommander, Mar Egeo come to mind) I've seen them all, and I can give my first person oppinion.

On the compensation to fishermen and affected people in general, the payments have been made fast and in full, being the very first time this happens (worth mention the 10 year delay that the socialist party previous experience, whit Mar Egeo wreckage, made the affected suffer).

So, a brilliant thechnical success, both in terms of toxic effects and financial help was tainted and, ultimately, perceived as a failure by the people (of course with the invaluable demagogic help of socialists and communists).





Irak war: again, we were embarked on the right side of the deal (both ethically and pragmatically). Let me guess, again:

Muslim fundamentals are not at war with Spain in particular, but with occidental way of living, that they believe is sinful and deserves bloody (literally) destruction. It has nothing to do (even) with Israeli's pretended atrocities (which I believe are no worse than palestinian ones), but with our values as liberal democratic countries. One can choose not to see this, but blindliness about it won't make this less the truth. Having said this, it is a blatant lie that our involvement in Irak's war will make us any different a target as we were before. If anything, we just raise our head among the meek herd that is comfortable in their believing that you can tame the beast by talking....just as Chamberlain did. I don't think so, thus my position in this regard.

But there is more to our alliance with the US. US has showed that they are the only trustful allies when it comes to our spanish national interests, as happened with Perejil Island's affair. It's worth noting that France blocked any EU action on this regard, alleging that they were "bilateral" affairs between Morocco and Spain. Even Morocco invaded some sovereign spanish land. Or France and Germany stance when Irak war seemed inevitable: they meet themselves and gave birth to a letter condemning US's stance in the affair, letter that other EU countries must adhere to, no questions or debate allowed. Nice show of the respect we deserve from France's point of view (and Germany, btw). I applaud Aznar for his decission, and I honestly think he made the right choice. I only hope Zapatero will have a "realpolitik" taste and keep on with our alliance. I have bad feelings about this, tho. It is "good selling" among people which has been feeded with demagogic perorata for quite a big amount of time about this matter.

So, at the very end, Popular Party period put Spain in very good economical shape, put us on the rightful side on the ugly terror war, and left a scape where honesty is the norm and not the exception when it comes to public money (sadly not so usual in the past). Of course an 8 yr. long mandate has lights and shadows but, overall, it's been great times for democracy in Spain, no matter what demagogic chanters try to deny.

Having said that, I think Popular Party developed some authoritarism in their way of conducting politics, and, in that sense, I'm not totally upset about them losing power. Besides that, Zapatero starts with the proverbial clean sheet, as Aznar did 8 years ago: not enough majority, and a clean past. Enough for me.

As a democrat I am all in favour of new blood in our government. As a truth-loving person, I only hope the new one will focus their sights ahead, and make good use of the good things left by Popular Party. They are not few, IMHO.

Sorry for this kilometer-length post. Anyone going its full length has my respect and compassion.  ;)

Offline Frogm4n

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« Reply #65 on: March 15, 2004, 09:40:52 AM »
The first of many countrys that will vote out the government that supported the war in iraq.

The french were right, there was not enough evidence to go to war in iraq. It was just for the neo-con dream, not for the war on terror.

Offline Westy

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« Reply #66 on: March 15, 2004, 09:53:19 AM »
So when does Bush invade?

Obviously the Spanish love Hussein because the public and current government there aren't Bush lackeys and "loving teh war." Besides, I'm also ready for a two week holiday on Ibiza or the Costa Del Sol and there's nothing cheaper than a vacation in an occupied zone.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #67 on: March 15, 2004, 10:05:13 AM »
So, the bashing of Spain has started.

Before any act is done, there's already some voice screaming "cowards".

As happened after Nassiryia.

We are still there, even disagreeing with the choise of our ally, even after knowing some of the reasons where utter lies (and Bliar still have to pay for that).

But you started your propaganda campaign against a democratic choise of a foreign and (supposed) free nation.

In your dreams there's a world full of puppets dancing to the music of Fox or CNN, but this dream comes true only in your country, and this made you upset.

Nothing count the fact that the old, bald Europe has managed to survive many bad days, has managed to win many different types of terrorism, your way is the only good one and who disagree is the enemy, friend of the enemy, or just plain stupid.

Go on, go on.

keep kicking in the face your friends.

Offline Lance

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« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2004, 10:21:53 AM »
Quote
Why is this us led "war" a fiasco?


Because we put the emphasis on Saddam & the Iraq government, which events have shown to not be an imminent threat, at the expense of having less resources to direct toward Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda's leadership in Afganistan/Pakistan, which events have shown to be an imminent threat to both us and now Spain.

Had we made Al Qaeda's  leadership our military's #1 priority in the 2 and a half years since 9/11/2001 (I mean deploying 140,000 troops against them instead of against Saddam Hussein), I think we would have taken them down.  Certainly it would at least be much harder for them to conduct their business.  As it is, they are still capable of mounting large scale deadly attacks overseas, as evidenced by the madrid bombings and our constant terror alerts.  Meanwhile, the majority of our mighty military machine is stuck propping up a fledgling government in Iraq and not in a position to target the Al Qaeda leadership directly.

Seriously, ask yourself these questions (my answers are in italics):
  • What is the primary purpose of our military? To defend us against foreign agression and to ensure that our citizens are able to live in peace.
  • How many attacks has Al Qaeda carried out against the U.S. in the past decade?First World Trade center bombing (6 killed), embassy bombings in Africa (224 killed), the USS Cole Bombing (17 killed), 9/11 (2976 killed).
  • How many attacks has the former Iraqi government carried out against the US in the past decade? They had a plan to kill the former president Bush when he visited Kuwait that was not carried out.
  • The former Iraqi government was portrayed as being an imminent threat to the U.S. with their vast stockpiles of chemical weapons and their aims to use them against us.  Now that we have engaged and overthrown them, does this portrayal hold true? No.  We have not found any such weapons, nor any evidence that they were going to be used against us
  • With regards to our nations security, which is a greater threat to us, the former Iraqi government or Al Qaeda?  Al Qaeda
  • Given the purpose of our military and that we have a limited amount of military resources to put into the war against terrorism, is it more prudent to allocate the majority of those resources to overthrowing Saddam Hussein or to dismantling Al Qaeda's leadership? Al Qaeda
What would be a victory for Al Qaeda is leaving in power a government that fails to make Osama Bin Laden and the rest of the Al Qaeda leaders the overriding priority in a war on terror.

Offline Westy

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« Reply #69 on: March 15, 2004, 10:22:57 AM »
Naso, I was being sarcastic towards those who were and remain hawkish,  pro-Iraq war and could careless who the US steps on to meet the US administrations goals. Remember the last year here? Anyone against the war were terroists supporters and loved S. Hussein.....?

 I personally applaud whatever choices the Spanish *people* make for themselves.  

Spain was one of my favorite countries to visit in Europe and I've not a single bad thing to say about the Spanish.  They were the friendliest people I ever met in my travels.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2004, 10:26:19 AM by Westy »

Offline CyranoAH

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« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2004, 10:32:31 AM »
No puedo decir que esté de acuerdo contigo Pepe, pero estoy contento de poder decirtelo sin que ello suponga crispación alguna :aok

Mis padres votan al PP, yo al PSOE, y créeme, si no me gusta cómo lo hacen, votaré al PP. Soy un firme creyente en la alternancia política y un opositor a los gobiernos de mayoría absoluta (sean del signo que sean).

Por haber votado al PSOE, créeme que ahora me lo miraré todo con lupa. Y si en 4 años se presenta Gallardón, seguramente le votaré, dado que es el tipo de político que me gusta.

Daniel

Offline Naso

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« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2004, 10:33:30 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Westy
Naso, I was being sarcastic towards those who were and remain hawkish,  pro-Iraq war and could careless who the US steps on to meet the US administrations goals. Remember the last year here? Anyone against the war were terroists supporters and loved S. Hussein.....?

 I personally applaud whatever choices the Spanish *people* make for themselves.  

Spain was one of my favorite countries to visit in Europe and I've not a single bad thing to say about the Spanish.  They were the friendliest people I ever met in my travels.


Westy, sorry mate, was'nt directed to you, IIRC I was still writing while you were posting.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2004, 10:46:55 AM »
Incoming Socialist Party Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero declares "Peace in our Time!"




:(  Fools!

You have defecated on the fresh graves of your dead. Be ashamed of yourselves, your whole nation should be ashamed....

Offline straffo

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« Reply #73 on: March 15, 2004, 10:48:49 AM »
That's completly uncalled and weird GRUN.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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« Reply #74 on: March 15, 2004, 10:53:40 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
That's completly uncalled and weird GRUN.


No it's not straffo. The whole nation turned itself to the mercy of the teorrists prcatically before the bodies of the dead even got cold.  This will go down in history as a shameful act in much the tradtion of Munich...

Look what the voters did. Its insane and it will just encourage more such attacks.