Wtg Spain!

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Eagler
dicuss what? another left pipe dream? maybe moveon can make a commercial say as much LOL

Sorry. We like to call it a hypothetical situation. Or maybe "what if" would be clearer. Kinda like "what if" you were to try to see both sides of an issue before making a decision.

If this is too much to comprehend I'll do a crayon drawing next time.

[Monk]

Its fine idea MT, but boy is that reaching.

[Yeager]

I wonder if the young Turks in ETA will see the new Spanish government capitulation in Iraq as an invitation to use mass casualty terror bombings within Spain to create their seperate state? Must be tempting more now then ever for them.

[CyranoAH]

*SIGH* How many times do I have to repeat that the promise of withrdrawing the troops from Iraq was made LONG before the terrorist attack?

Daniel

[Chairboy]

It wasn't the timing of the promise to pull out of iraq that sparks discussion of appeasement, it's how the spanish voters did a 180 and voted the socialist ticket in response to the attack on their soil.

The socialists aren't the appeasers, they are just the instrument.  The voters have democratically decided to take a stance of appeasement by wielding the political parties in power appropriately.

[GODO]

Originally posted by deSelys
Besides, the spanish people are hot tempered and proud about their country.

That potato peeling temper has been are will be our doom forever. And you are wrog about the probable results before the bombings. PP was a very clear winner.

BTW Pepe, open your eyes, now you have not a president, all you'll have is a retarded clown surrounded by even more retarded, stinking and oportunistic ones, the same as in the black Gonzalez days, but with much less experience.

MANDOBLE

[culero]

Originally posted by ravells
Seems to me that post partition, the Palestinians have always been the underdogs and mistreated by the Israeli state and the rest of the Arab world.

Ravs.

I wouldn't disagree that the Palestinians are being done no favors by either the Israelis or their fellow Arabs.

However, they are part of the "Arab world". Given the avowance from the rest of that "world" that Israel must not be allowed to survive, the perception is that they have many allies locally, while Israel has none.

Thus, Israel seems to be the underdog in the region, since the Palestinians seem to have many allies in the effort to expel or exterminate the Israelis.

culero

[Frogm4n]

Originally posted by CyranoAH
*SIGH* How many times do I have to repeat that the promise of withrdrawing the troops from Iraq was made LONG before the terrorist attack?

Daniel

They dont want to believe that. They still see iraq as part of the war on terror, that it was a threat to the US that could strike at anytime. Then if you bring up the fact that it wasnt and boroda was right and indeed iraq was no threat to the US, they tell you how evil saddam was to his people.

So which is it? Was it a war to liberate iraq, or was it a war to stop saddam from trying to get WMD's he didnt have to terrorists that didnt work with him?

And how does spain pulling out of iraq(the will of the people since they went it) have anything to do with the war on terror, because its blatenly obvious that attacking iraq had nothing to do with it.

[Chairboy]

Frogman,

Spain pulling out of Iraq is not a symbol of bowing to the terrorists, it's the election results that made that decision possible that indicate appeasement.

The socialists said all along they would pull out of Iraq if they had the chance, and that's a perfectly legit stance for them to take.  My only problem with the whole situation is that the Socialist party ended up getting the majority vote BECAUSE of something terrorists did.  They weren't going to win before the bombings, but the bombings shocked the populace into changing government.

The week before the election of any democratic country is now going to be frought with peril because all terrorist organizations have PROOF that a well timed attack can actually change the government of their target.

I have no beef with the Spanish socialist party, I don't know anything about them.  They are just doing their thing and representing the will of the people.  My beef is with how the individual voters just validated a terrible new tactic for imposing political change.

Best regards,

Chairboy

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Frogm4n
So which is it? Was it a war to liberate iraq, or was it a war to stop saddam from trying to get WMD's

can't it be both?
do you think Libya would have coughed up her nuclear program if the US hadn't invaded?

 

And how does spain pulling out of iraq (the will of the people since they went it) have anything to do with the war on terror, because its blatenly obvious that attacking iraq had nothing to do with it.

then why did the terrorists blow up their train because they had troops in Iraq if Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism?

[deSelys]

Originally posted by GODO
...And you are wrog about the probable results before the bombings. PP was a very clear winner.
...

Well it didn't seem so sure to some of you:

Originally posted by CyranoAH in this thread
- First of all, the Popular Party was sure to lose the absolute majority by a good margin. Things like the war in Iraq, the management of the "prestige" spill, and the fact that the popular party didn't want to participate in a televised debate against the other parties played an important role in that.

[GODO]

Originally posted by deSelys
Well it didn't seem so sure to some of you:

previssions march 4

[deSelys]

Ok I stand corrected. Can somebody summarize to me what is being said about the number of seats. Was PP gaining a few more seats in the predictions, or losing some?

[Pepe]

deSelys, I think you need to update your information about Spain  

First, Popular Party, as Mandoble said, was a clear winner on the elections. The only issue on the table was wether they have absolute majority or relative one. That was acknowledged even by Socialists. And this is the reason why Socialist party has an "opposition" program, full of promises never ment to be fulfilled. Life is ironic sometimes, I guess.

Second, although there were huge demonstrations against war in Irak, and Spain involvement, council & autonomous governments elections held after them gave Popular Party the victory. Again. I guess there was not so "majority" support. Maybe I'm wrong, but elections' numbers tell it.

Third, anyone with two eyes in his face, and most of the ones on some other cathegory, can see that communication skills had been horrible with Popular Party Government. They made is so bad as to give PRISA (the villain press that manipualted the facts in March 11th.) a monopoly in pay Satellite TV. However, the polls were influenced by an emotional reaction to 200 deaths, fuelled by media....that one who fancy and support socialist ideas....in the optimist assumption they have any.

Fourth, you can choose to see it or not. Islamic radicals had given an ultimatum to occidental way of life looooooooo (oooo) ng before Twin Towers killings in 1.993. We are all targets. The sooner we realize it, the better. Pity that new Government in Spain wants to sell some other message...yet to see. And pity there is still people who do not realize it.

It is not a matter of cowardice, as most americans seem to agree. This is short-sighted. What is happening is not spanish cowardicing about being in Irak. Neither is retreating in front of terrorism. What is happening is even poorer.

What is happening in Spain is a Socialist Party Candidate who never dreamt we would be President. And, as responsible as they use to be, fill a government program with promises they simply can't comply with. Among others, they stated that they would pullout troops from Irak. Why they said that? Simply because it's good electoral merchandising. There is quite a bunch of spaniards still tied to Vietnam, who think that anything labelled american equals imperialism. Socialists don't care this is false, as they  didn't care in 1.930 when republicans burned churches, and murdered nuns. They will do whatever it takes to touch power.  In their intimate believing only they are true "democrats". Right wing liberals are point less than fascists, or plain fascists. If something history has tought Spain is that Socialists, precisely PSOE, will do anything to stay in power. They will lie, manipulate, negotiate with terrorists or with the ones who negotiate with them (as they did in Catalonia), if they see the reward of power at the end. Take the bandage on your eyes off. Spain did not cowardice. Spain has been betrayed by a bunch of irresponsible fourty years teenagers. These clowns have chosen to comply with their word in the best possible selling way: let's not follow america's rule. As idiot as it can be, this is a good selling point.


They can sell you that Spain has talked. While this is strictly true, there is another truth lying within: Spain has been manipulated to tell what they were seeking to be told. We are starting to see it when the current Government is declassifying intelligence knowledge and documents after the killing. NOTHING, absolutely nothing suggest they were lying.

Shame on the socialist party, who is bringing shame on us. For what they are doing to Spain is betrayal. Traici�n, in Cervante's language. Same as they did in 1.930, 1.934 or did to their own electors with NATO issue.

I accept the election's results. It's my duty. But the truth is the truth. And the truth is far, far, very far away from these people who is taking charge of the my country's Government.

Now the pain for 200 coutrymen killed is starting to fade away I'm starting to realize the fraud these guys have commited. As the terrorists, perfectly timed. And almost as repugnant.

I can only protest by using this boards or some other similar to this, and by writing letters to the editor. Of course, I can suspend my subscription to the media endorsed by these clowns. Which I'm doing, by the way. But not much more than this, and wait for the next 4 years with not a lot of hope in the future.

[Edit] Daniel, no me has contestado   [/edit]

[Yeager]

So which is it? Was it a war to liberate iraq, or was it a war to stop saddam from trying to get WMD's
====
Apart from both the above reasons being valid, my own personal reason for justifying Gulf War II is that Hussein absolutely should have been eliminated at the end of the first gulf war.  Thats how I justify the current operation in my own mind.  It was a success but now there is hard tragic work going on as Iraq tries to stabilize as a democratic society.

There are other valid reasons for the successful effort to depose Hussein but I also see and understand why many people feel that GW2 was wrong and even illegal.  Im just glad Bush2 succeeded where Bush1 failed.  Now all attention should be on supporting  the overwhelming majority of free Iraqis as they build a lasting government.