Author Topic: Wtg Spain! (Read 2859 times)

Ripsnort · « **on:** March 17, 2004, 07:42:33 PM »

See? Cowering DOES work!

Al Queda calls "Truce" in Spain

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/18/1079199323371.html

-tronski- · « **Reply #1 on:** March 17, 2004, 08:19:24 PM »

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/17/1079199285597.html?from=storyrhs

Commentators have suggested that the devastating defeat of the Spanish Popular Party (PP) indicates a similar fate may assail the Bush, Blair and indeed Howard Governments as their own populations condemn the war in Iraq. Such speculation comes amid reports that Spain’s new Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero is intending to withdraw all of the 1300 Spanish troops that have so far played a peace keeping role with the Coalition in Iraq.

Out of either a sincere fear for the consequences of these circumstances or with the intention of scoring domestic political points through instilling such fear, Governments throughout the Coalition have claimed that a Spanish withdrawal from Iraq would not only bring needless destruction to the occupied country, it would also send a message to terrorist organisations that bombings and terror campaigns are effective tools that bring about change in Western policies.

Such claims are simplistic and misleading, as they seek to frame the debate in a ‘black and white’, either/or analysis similar to the belligerent ‘you’re either with us or against us’ rhetoric of the Bush Doctrine which took us to Iraq in the first place.

..and

In addition to leveling refreshing criticism at Bush and Blair for the invasion of Iraq the new Spanish Prime Minister said the following:

“I want to create an alliance against violence and all kinds of terrorism.”

“The Socialist Party is going to keep relationships with all the governments of the world, including the United States, even though we don't agree on some issues.”

Neither of these statements are acknowledged by commentators whose black and white interpretation of Spain’s options lead them to believe the Socialist Government is on the verge of withdrawing completely from the war against terrorism and turning its back on the alliances fighting this war. Nor do they pay heed to the following notable statement, repeated more than once since the election:

“If the U.N. doesn't take control of Iraq, I think Spanish troops are going to come back, and the date is June 30... I don't think the administration in Iraq is the best."

Here we see the Prime Minister acknowledging the ineffective nature of the US led invasion and occupation of Iraq. He is moving his Government away from the either/or of the former Aznar Popular Party and drawing closer to the alleged ‘old Europe’ of France and Germany, who through out the entire debate have subverted black and white analysis by demanding the consideration of ‘other options’ in dealing with Iraq. What these other options are is made obvious by the above statement. Spain will withdraw IF the United Nations doesn’t take control.

Tronsky

rogwar · « **Reply #2 on:** March 17, 2004, 08:32:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by -tronski-
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/17/1079199285597.html?from=storyrhs

Such claims are simplistic and misleading, as they seek to frame the debate in a ‘black and white’, either/or analysis similar to the belligerent ‘you’re either with us or against us’ rhetoric of the Bush Doctrine which took us to Iraq in the first place.
[/i]

Tronsky

That was not rhetoric. That was speaking directly. Maybe the President could have also added a 3rd caveat of "or just get out of the way".

I am truly saddened by the loses in Spain and know it will be difficult for the families, friends, as well as the entire country to deal with the loss.

However, apeasement is not the best path. There are many examples of such in history, all over the world. It may work in the short-term but the long-term results can be devastating to a sovereign nation.

It's just that this appears to us as "terrorism really does work".

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #3 on:** March 17, 2004, 08:34:45 PM »

What is this miracle you libs/euros expect will take place if the UN is in charge? Will it change anything? What would the UN do differently than the US troops in dealing with insurgents?

irritant · « **Reply #4 on:** March 17, 2004, 08:50:31 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What is this miracle you libs/euros expect will take place if the UN is in charge? Will it change anything? What would the UN do differently than the US troops in dealing with insurgents?

I agree.

The insurgents will still attack the UN. It was a cold reminder when the UN HQ in Baghdad was bombed.

OIO · « **Reply #5 on:** March 17, 2004, 10:04:03 PM »

why grun, you should know better than that.

If the UN was in charge, theyd probably argue and debate themselves to death while their 100 man 'peacekeeping' force gets shot at.

Then 'old europe' will start screaming and demanding the US do something. Because its their fault..always. you know

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #6 on:** March 17, 2004, 10:06:20 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by OIO
why grun, you should know better than that.

If the UN was in charge, theyd probably argue and debate themselves to death while their 100 man 'peacekeeping' force gets shot at.

Then 'old europe' will start screaming and demanding the US do something. Because its their fault..always. you know

Well I am still asking for the perspective of those who ask for UN control.

muckmaw · « **Reply #7 on:** March 17, 2004, 10:10:36 PM »

Grun-

I'm surprised at you! Don't you know you cannot get killed when you wear the blue UN helmet?

Thats why we're had all these losses in this "Fiasco". Because we dont have the magic Blue helmet.

Look...apparently if you bomb a piece of Europe, you get capitulation.

You knock down 2 towers and kill 3,000 Americans and you get the other 250 million pissed off at you.

It seems to be different on this side of the pond.

I get the feeling any thing the terrorists try to pull before our election would work in favor of Bush.

StSanta · « **Reply #8 on:** March 17, 2004, 11:48:40 PM »

Rip, we'll have an election here soon too. Currently, "conservatives" are in power - as in Spain.

We contributed to the war effort. Spain's socialist future leaders immediate response of yelling at the top of their lungs "WE'LL PULL OUR TROOPS AWAY RIGHT NOW, SORRY BIN LA...ERR...MR. BIN LADEN!" has made my security situation worse. His desire to pull troops back was well known, but he as a politician should know that the timing of his remarks was awful and that it sends a very strong signal. He knew just what signal it'd send and went ahead regardless, caught up in the unexpected rush of victory.

Only difference is that our social democrats this far has said that pulling our troops from iraq would be a mistake, because the war did happen and we do have to deal with it.

Al Qaeida could try something similar in Denmark, especially with the eoncouragement their last acts of murder gave them. There was great opposition to the war here too (60% against), so I doubt the spine of the doubters would be strong enough to resist "appeasement". After all, the Nazis dinnae bomb the **** outta us coz we were basically conquered in three days.

I'm with the Yankees on this one. The response to a direct attack on civilians should not be appeasement - it should be direct response by all military and economical means, followed up by a campaign to remove or lessen the conditions that make recruiting so easy for fundamentalists. Dunno if the Yankees are with me with the last line there, but that's how I see it.

Damn terrorists can wreck havoc to the economy, aside from murdering in cold blood innocent people and causing massive grief. And by the looks of it, they're taking their fight to my back yard, then my kitchen. I won't end up in the bedroom with 'em, that's for sure.

Pepe · « **Reply #9 on:** March 18, 2004, 02:05:35 AM »

Just for you to know, Rip.

Socialists are governing Catalonia with the support of Esquerra Republicana (Republican Left). The head of this party had the guts to go to France some two weeks before the elections to have an interview with ETA terrorists. After that was known, our soon to be president not only did not break the coalition, but showed full support to it. Although he condemned the talks (Oh, thks, we now all feel better). One of the results of the talks was a truce declared by ETA to his operations in Catalonia. They will kill people from the rest of Spain.

Fortunately, there is a lot of people in Catalonia that feel sorry for this. I can assure you there is a lot of people in Spain that feel sorry for what we are planning to do with our troops.

There is nothing these people (I am one of them) can do about our troops that show my support for what they are doing, and hope my president realize that there is a fundamental error in retiring them, and that it is a shame for us not being a terrorist target in this terms.

Staga · « **Reply #10 on:** March 18, 2004, 04:22:04 AM »

So these terrorists were from Iraq? I can't see any other reason why Spanish forces should be occupying that country ?

CyranoAH · « **Reply #11 on:** March 18, 2004, 04:27:18 AM »

Oh, the Abu Hafs al-Masri brigades... the ones that claimed responsibility for the East Coast blackout. Real credible source there Rip.

Daniel

Pepe · « **Reply #12 on:** March 18, 2004, 04:48:36 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by CyranoAH
Oh, the Abu Hafs al-Masri brigades... the ones that claimed responsibility for the East Coast blackout. Real credible source there Rip.

Daniel

I think they were the ones that claimed responsibility on Madrid bombings....and they were taken seriously from the very first moment by socialists, so seriously as to call "liar" the government, right?

They are, or they aren't, credible?

CyranoAH · « **Reply #13 on:** March 18, 2004, 05:36:15 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Pepe
I think they were the ones that claimed responsibility on Madrid bombings....and they were taken seriously from the very first moment by socialists, so seriously as to call "liar" the government, right?

They are, or they aren't, credible?

Pepe, Pepe... the fact is not that they claimed responsibility (EVEN the cadena SER said that the source of information was not credible since they had claimed the east coast blackout), the fact is that the government denied any possibility other than eta even when the investigation clues were pointing elsewhere.

Don't blame it on the bombings, blame it on the poor management of the crisis.

Daniel

PD: Como ya te había dicho, no nos pondremos de acuerdo. Tú crees a Urdaci, y yo a Gabilondo... es lo que hay

Momus-- · « **Reply #14 on:** March 18, 2004, 06:02:03 AM »

Spot on Staga.

Pepe/Daniel, how many bombings have ETA carried out in Catalunya since their inception? Just interested.

I think the point about UN control of the Iraq situation is that it would legitimize the operation in the eyes of the Arab public. But given that Bush & co plainly don't give two hoots for Arab opinion, it kind of gives the lie to all the crying about "appeasement".