how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read

[Fishu]

Hristo: did you say that .50 caliber round has better effective distance?

[Hristo]

If you consider dispersion, shape of the round, barrell length, muzzle velocity, aerodynamic profile, number of guns, rate of fire, etc etc, yes, I think it does.

I would gladly be wrong though.

[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-27-1999).]

[Fishu]

Hristo: from my sources and also about posts i've read, cannons are more effective after certain range...

You could compare it to 155mm field artilery gun and 20mm auto cannon, which you think travels longer distance?
155mm shell can travel over tens of kilometers, when 20mm auto cannon lose its effect before 10 kilometer.
So, what we have here, is 12.7mm bullet versus 20mm bullet with more weight, which keeps it going for longer time, it also has more punch / single hit.
30mm MK-108 packs a little velocity from gun, but it travels far also, while packing more punch than 20mm.
Unfortunately all guns except B-17 guns in WB seem to be restricted to 1000 yards maximum, like in warbirds, which is totally wrong, gives some advantage for .50 caliber

There was one great post in some of the news group about these bullet ranges..

But well, you could also test this by yourself, try throw a little stone further than some bigger stone (not that big that you cant throw it effectively  )
Theres more mass for bigger stone, which will help it go longer distances.

[Hristo]

...inertia, in short  

[Flathat]

Easiest wat...just find the UFO-D I'm flying.   I started flying LW, just to get a different perspective on repeated flaming death. But I'm having fun, dammit!  

------------------
Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail

[Camel]

Ok, I can handle being a 51 uberdweeb, but all 51's HO is taking it too far. I can't speak for all, only myself, and I don't HO.

Camel

[Hangtime]

Hristo! Thanks fer the observations.. I agree with your comments for the most part; but may have something to add here...  
      _________________________

HRISTO: Hangtime, P 51D should be harder to fly at low speeds than 109. Things should get even worse if P 51D puts his nose up at those speeds. I think nobody disagrees on this.
     ___________________________

Certainly.. it's laminar airfoil (semi-symmetrical)is optimised for higher alts and speeds. However; weight comparisons alone don't tell the tale in the turnfights; wingloading does. The 109 sported a smaller wing; and I belive when you factor the larger wing and weight of the P51 against the smaller wings and lighter weight of the 109 the performance will remain similar.. till yah pump in that HP avail for power to weight. The 109 had the brute HP and could go up like gangbusters. This gave it the edge in the turnfights. I see the 109 in AH as having the edge at low speeds on the deck here too.. the smart 109 drivers just go to verticals and my goose gets cooked. Only if they manuver in the horizontal do I have a chance.. and that's all I need.  
      __________________________

HRISTO: Now I remember Pyro said that different airfoils aren't modeled yet (sorry if I missunderstood this, Pyro). That might translate into a serious P 51D disadvantage not modeled yet in AH : poor low speed high AoA handling. Most likely our 190A-8 benefits from this too, as it performs different than in the other sim.
        _______________________

Ahhh yes.. till yah flap that laminar airfoil! You may have noticed that flaps don't do much here but slow the plane. I can't comment on how the 109 reacts to flap but I can assure you it does nothing for the turn performance of the P51 as currently modeled. With a laminar airfoil at high AOA lift degrades very rapidly. To correct this; some flap is all thats required. (essentialy restoring the lift) The higher the desired AOA; the more flap. Note the many flap settings avail to the P51.. and now yah know why.   I look forward to the airfoil/flap modeling improvements... I'll be able to use em to great effect in the tight high AOA turn fights at the appropriate times; unlike now.  
          __________________________

HRISTO: On the other hand, 109 (the Levitating Gustav, as you refer) should excel at levitation tricks. Its wings are far more suited for climbing and low speed flight than the ones of P 51D. It is also substantially lighter than P 51D, and its engine is considerably more powerfull. It should hang there, waiting for your P 51D to drop.
        ______________________

Allow me to apologise.. that wuz a poorly chosen remark in an attempt to point out that the Gustav as currently modeled is not helpless in the presence of the P51D. I EXPECT the Gustav's power to weight advantage to be modeled; and without extensive experience in it's cockpit, and based on adversary observation; it CERTAINLY has those abilities. In spades   The Mustangs HP just can't compete there; and it doesn't.   The Gustav as currently modeled easily outclimbs my P51D every time the pilot choses to do so. (assuming he killed my E before he tries it) I'm also confident that my willingness to engage a 109 in a turnfight will be somewhat diminished as the airfoil improvements show up; and I agree that the 109 and 190 should benefit MORE than the laminar modeled P51.. till the fight gets higher. At alt and speed I expect the Mustang to turn BETTER. On the deck, the pilots of the LW planes should learn to fight verticaly instead of horizontally; or they will continue to suffer at the hands of experienced stang drivers.

Hang

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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Hangtime]

    ___________________
Ask yourself this. When was the
last time you saw a P51 try to avoid an HO. Unless your in a p51 yourself, or maby a spit. I cant remember ever seeing a UFO-D pilot try to avoid an HO with me.
___________________

LOL.. well I guess I'm an HO dweeb. I've done it enuff ta qualify fer the mantle. But consider.. every two circle fight is another HO oppertunity! Are we talking about these kinds of low aspect closures or the straight ahead run right in gunnin HO's?

I guess I can dodge some of the onus by stating that for the most part the straight ahead drive right in HO is the fastest way ta kill a threat to the buffs when I'm escortin; and, sadly; it almost always comes at the price of my plane at least. And frankly in these circumstances, most often the attacker is himself HO'in the buff, lol! I can't recall more than a few occaisons where I've come out of an HO with an engine... but it does decimate the opponet but quick if the need arises.  

In a plane v plane merge I tend ta dodge the HO, particularly against LW AC.. unless I'm outnumbered, I'll opt to dodge and go for the angles. The rate of fire against those kannonen and MG's just plain overwhelms me, at best I'll catch a porked engine.. worst; instant death. I'd rather optimise my angles after the merge than to slug it out nose ta nose with an FW on the first pass. Sometimes, if the other guy is just roarin down on me, angles locked and I'm gonna catch it no matter what.. well; hell; I'll angle on up and in and give him a piece of americana as a parting comment. No good deed ever goes unpunished.  

Niki's and spits have awfly weak wings.. and I'll trade my chances of gettin the angles on these nimble guys for an HO when I'm outta e and meat for the table already. So; yah, if they're wadin inta the fight grinnin like idiots I'll take a crack at em HO any old day when I have NO chance or gettin into his 6.

Sorry.. but damn; the angles kings shred like paper when they cross my convergence in a shallow HO off a two circle merge. Of course; should they land even one cannon round on me; I'm porked.. but hell; I'm cooked if he gets around too; so you gotta crank the rounds in while yah got the chance... all things being equal; I'd rather go fer the angles and saddle up. Wrestle me to the mat; and I'll do what I gotta ta get the other guy; and if itsa HO itsa HO. I don't expect the other guy ta NOT fire.. he's gotta do whut he's gotta do, too.

Finally.. everyone commin to an HO situation has a choice.. go for angles or for the fast draw.. and a quick draw against any MG equipped plane is a poor choice; second only to goin against the FW itself. So I guess yah can dodge and take yer chances with me on the turn.  Muahhahhaaaa.. Ultimate Chicken, Wanna play? You'll have ta pay.  

*sigh* (hang hangs head in shame) "Hi.. my names Hangtime; and I have an HO problem"

 

Hang


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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 12-28-1999).]

[Hangtime]

TOWD; My most excellent advesary, killer of Mustangs, reminder to us all of our poor taste in planes; may I give you the gift that you request...
    ____________________

>> hope others post on how to kill with other planes <<
    _____________________

HOW TO KILL A MUSTANG using ANY Fighter:

Kill His 'E'. thats all.. that's it.. nothing else required.

Detail?? Ok, he can't outclimb u from low e state unless yer porked with fuel. So get him to a lower E state than u by lettin him turn on yah. Carry tanks, but dump em and retrim BEFORE engagement. (I cant TELL yah how many fuel tank totin FW's I've hosed down.. jeeeze) If yah have SOME skills in yer plane you can stay outta his guns while yah drag him round and round. Remember to dodge.. maintaining a steady direction of travel fer even a few seconds while he's closin angles will get yah pinged. Oh.. and assume yah can take some pings.. it's only a feeble .50 tappin yah. (unless yer in a kite)

Anyhow.. I digress. Kill his 'E'. If he decides ta play with yah, and he foolishly hops on the hook and decides to go to circles; (instead of stayin high and pounding yer poor bellybutton from the perch) well; now yah got him. Yer gonna steal his e, then yer gonna climb; then YOU can get on the perch, and come down and kill HIM.

Of course if this happy little scenario ain't on the deck at this point; the witless airman Pony Pilot will look up at you.. say "Ahhhhhhhh.. Fudge" and dive into the hole, weppin and rollin fer his precious "e" desperate ta get the hell out of Dodge on a 5k extension. (Nice ta have the top speed card) If the fight IS on the deck; depending on when and where he bolted you can be in the gravy or in on a long tail chase. HINT: Don't let the P51 inta a 2 circle fight down low.

And if yah let me get away; I'll probably come back and kill yah.  
      ___________________

>>cause the 109 is the only one i can find that had a decent chance at all.<<
    ______________________

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.. towd, I really don't think so... about the 109 bein the only plane that has a chance, I mean. I've been worked over by specalists in all the plane types, and I honestly think that ANY of these planes flown by pilots as skilled as you are in the 109 can certainly kill a stang handily in a one on one engagement, all other things being equal. For my part as a Mustang Pilot, I try like hell to make sure the engagement ain't equal....   When caught at a disadvantage I get the biggest part of my edge back by flying the plane VERY aggresivly, just like you do. So again.. the strenghts and weaknesses of pilots and the circumstances of the combat wreak more havoc on the results than the A/C..

Of course, thats just my opinion, I could be wrong.  
    _________________

p.s. flamers can kiss may bellybutton twice
    _________________

Kiss;Kiss   yah bum.  

Hang



------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[Fishu]

Hangtime,
"Niki's and spits have awfly weak wings.. and I'll trade my chances of gettin the angles on these nimble guys for an HO when I'm outta e and meat for the table already. So; yah, if they're wadin inta the fight grinnin like idiots I'll take a crack at em HO any old day when I have NO chance or gettin into his 6."

Spitfries didn't have too tough wings in real life either.. from that what I know, pulling too many Gs might cause structucal failure on wings and even rip wings out. (yes yes, all planes does, but how easily, thats the matter)

I keep N1K2 quite tuff plane for japanese, sometimes they don't go down from that what P-51 dies already twice at least.
Few times wondered how the N1K which I just shot up, still is flying and killing.

If some wings are weak, I say those wings belongs to F4u, those rips off fairly easy for fighter which I thought were heavily armoured  

About getting into 6, you do make your chances to get into 6.
HO sure doesn't help your chances to get on enemys 6... not to talk about that you don't get skills to fight if you don't try.

[Ice]

IMHO.....

I have only flown the 51 over 8 yrs of these sims for the following reasons....

Its fast

It holds its E....(If I'm serious my IAS rarely drops below 300)

Excellent gun platform at speed

Kills with impunity...(Runaway when I lose the Advantage)

Is American Muscle

Am a RL pilot and admire its flight characteristics

Having said the above, the F4U is a killer as well....Prolly more so than the stang as an E fighter. The LW plane to best deal with a 51D is any FW flown correctly (no high G turning).

I hope that HT and company make the 51 the hardest most cantankerous aircraft in the sim....maybe then folks will find some other excuse as to why they die at the hands of better pilots

Cyas Up!

Ice..........Out!

P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies"  

[jmccaul]

ICE

P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies"

sums it up perfectly unmanouverable, poor acceleration, butt ugly and american  

give me a lotus 7 any day  

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-29-1999).]

[Dingy]

 

ICE Said....
P51D...."Cadillac of the Skies"

sums it up perfectly unmanouverable, poor acceleration, butt ugly and american

Grrrrrrrrr!!!!  Why I oughta......  

-Ding

[-towd_]

I love you guys.

[Hangtime]

LOL TOWD.. we love you too. You savage brute; you.   Hey; who does yer hair? You get that 'Soap-on-a-Rope' we sent yah fer xmas?

Muahhahhaaaaaaaa

Hang