Author Topic: how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read  (Read 2893 times)

-towd_

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« on: December 25, 1999, 02:28:00 PM »
well seems like this bb has started to get in a rut so i figured what the hell.

this is a forum for postin you favorite way to kill a 51 (or multiples in most cases) personaly i prefer usin a 109 with the single 20 mm (hard to kill the really good ones but over confidence abounds in ufo drivers)the reason i use the 109 with 20 mm is it will acctualy out proform a ufo if you can get him in the right situation. bleed his  speed and e down to nothin and get him on the deck , they have a tendency to attack at 500kn plus ( not the smart ones but they gonna get you almost no matter what) at this speed the 51 does give some consessions to physics as in the roll rate and turning speed go down to somthing less than the 109s ,this can be exploited
use the 109s best evasive. a fast roll followed by hard hard hard stick pull,throttle all the way down for the turn  with luck the will attempt to stay with you and bleed some e , repeat as nessisary (carful to stay alive), a series of loops is often the best way of doin this using the rudder assisted hammerhead the 109 accels at , get um below 200 kn and you can out manuver 90% of um you usualy must get um on the deck to kill um ( nose down 1500hp? ufo gains speed like its got rocket boosters,easily out acceleratin the 2000hp 109 so they can break off any time they want.( is this right?)  but if it makes a level run and you are close you got mayby 20 sec till he out runs you (this of course depends of the situation but the window of you being faster than the ufo is short, real short).

also for the 109 with single 20mm you have no convergence issues ( i set it at 600 and leave it) very much like a 38 but you must fire in close (d200and less) to get a quick kill. you have more sec of ammo than the 30mm
so you can sprayy a little ( use the 13mm alone to scare um into a turn if you can )
dont be afraid to dance the 20 mm 109 is the pure fighter and will almost turn with a spit ( hint u got to use rudder unlike spit)and will out clime anything but a ufo in a zoom ( i have seen them stall and 10 sec later do a 2k zoom clime so beware )

a note on 51s laminar wings , they are supposed to lose alot of lift at high angles of attack like those hard 10 g turns  at 200 kn that has become a staple of the 51 drivers, THEY DO NOT lose much e in even these turns  so dont think you have them till you are on their 6 with blood on you spinner.  

hope others post on how to kill with other planes , cause the 109 is the only  one i can find that had a decent chance at all.

p.s. flamers can kiss may bellybutton twice

Offline Fishu

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 1999, 02:41:00 PM »
I just wish they fix P-51 into more realistic, or then gives equal realism for other fighters... (this excludes that another uber plane ..)

P-51D strenghts in AH, which it didnt have:

Bf109 seems to stall easier when pulling at slow speeds than P-51D (What I've heard, P-51D should be screwed with slow speeds)

Seems to climb pretty good (did not know that P-51D had 109s ability to climb)

Accerlates to 300mph quickly, faster 100 to 200mph accerlate than spitfire has. (They always said P-51D was fairly slow to accerlate, and 109 did have awesome accerlate, doesnt seem like it)

UFO turns, which even spitfire cannot do. At least I haven't seen spitfires turn in front of me full 180 degrees 500 yards off and go head on. (Never knew that P-51D turned better than spitfire when slow&low)


Well, theres my flames on P-51D modelling. (maybe its C model with 6x.50cal and D outlook?)

Offline Hristo

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 1999, 03:18:00 PM »
Well, after a duel with -aper- <S>, I gained back confidence in 109. Maybe he can explain it better, but I will try. This experience is gathered under "enemy" handle, Hristo is too careful for such things    

Compression is 109s worst characteristic. However, it is a kind of E preserving mechanism too, IMHO. 109 won't let you do stupid moves. When flap and gear deployment limits get modeled, it might be even better. No more unrealistic slowing down to make a kill, just to find yourself low and slow for other cons    

Trim tabs are enough to control high speed dives.

TnB is generally unwise, because someone else always shows up. E fight is much better choice.

If the P 51 is co-E, just watch your G meter and build up E advantage. However, too much E is not good for 109. Compression makes safe BnZ unsuitable, you have to do tight BnZ. Reversal timing is important - he must be slow, but if you wait too long he will have time to dive away. Smart P 51D will run away from any co-E 109 he sees. Its aerodynamics and weight will help it in a dive. If you try to run away from P 51, don't dive. It will catch you. You have to either flat outaccelerate it, or outclimb it.

At the merge pick up speed and go under them - fake low E state. 9 out of 10 Ponies will Split S to lead turn you. Immelmann or chandelle under low G and dictate the fight after. Many of those Ponies will try HO before they go for Split S - even better.

If they do an Immelmann, you can start shallow climb and get above them. Immediate Immelmann might put you in their guns range at HO, which they will probably take.

Some of them have favourite way to do Split S and come back up in HO. just wait up there and pounce them when they top out slow. Don't take the HO.

If you TnB, make the fight as slow as you can (IAS wise, of course). At low speed 109 really beats the UFO. Try to fight them at higher alt - low IAS, better for 109. At very low IAS 109 outrolls Pony. You can use that too.

Use 109 to sucker Ponies to climb to you. Don't get suckered in compressed dives.

Also, rudder is a great 109 quality. Some great moves can be done with it (ask aper   ). The one you described is probably most effective, kind of vertical scissors, combined with hammerheads.

As for turning, I would not mix up P 51 high speed turns with stick forces. It should outturn 109 at high speed. Elevator was lighter at those speeds, as far as I know.

At low speed P 51D is a pretty good turner, but coordinated 109 turner can beat it. Pursuit curves are a big factor though. Still, no sign of Pony dropping out of turn and reversing when pushed too far (didn't Robert Shaw mention something like that ?).

As for P 51 FM characteristics, you already know my opinion (high AoA/low speed handling and acceleration). Seems it has automatic hammerhead maneuver programmed in, it does it better than 109 at this point. Control feeling makes it fly like a toy  . It will surely be interesting to see how it does after the FM revision.

Disclaimer: These are only my opinons, and are writen in 10 minutes.


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-25-1999).]

Offline jmccaul

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 1999, 03:31:00 PM »
The P51 is overmodelled I haven't done any tests but a it's a gut feeling and it's probably the best plane to rack up kills when smartly flown but when your driving your spit and see a co-alt dot coming towards you and it turns out to be a 51 it holds less fear than a La-5, 109 or spit as the spit will still outclimb and outturn it, perhaps less comfortably than it should but in a dogfight you still hold the cards, sure it can still disengage but he can't kill you if he disengages. Isay the La 5 or 109 hold more fear mainly because of the pilots that fly them rather than then plane characteristics and of course the spit is  still a better dogfighter.
           

Offline Fishu

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 1999, 06:44:00 PM »
Okey, lets write down top kills per sortie/survivability planes..

1# P-51
2# Spitfire
3# Bf109
4# Fw190
5# La5

Havent managed to test out c205 or n1k2 enough to tell about them..

But in P-51 its not impossible to have +4 kills per sortie average and fast killing with nice landings...

In spitfire theres great turn and maneuverability, even with low ammo, it can rack up kills +3 per sortie very easy

Bf109 can survive good and kill pretty fine also, +2-3 average per sortie plane.
(this is with single 20mm..)

Fw190 can kill good, but also might have forced to run alot, which gives it slight minus on kills per time ratio.
Also you cannot engage as freely in 190 as in P51, 109 or spitfire

La5 worst side is its low fuel, which really messes up its kills per time/sortie ratio

Offline Lance

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 1999, 07:51:00 PM »
This isn't a flame, I am posting out of genuine curiosity.  I've read/heard many people complain about the p51 being overmodelled.  Exactly what is meant by this?  How is it overmodelled relative to both its real performance and to the present performance of other planes in the arena?

Gordo

[This message has been edited by Lance (edited 12-25-1999).]

Offline Central

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 1999, 08:31:00 PM »
Fishu,

+3 and +4s you worried about?

What ever plane Hitech was flying 12/24/99, I saw this "Hitech kill #16 ....."
I dont care if he was vulching! All i want is that plane and ammo load out! :-)

Central
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 http://bombergroup.com

Typhoon

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 1999, 09:26:00 PM »
I fly the Uber 190a8 to kill p51s with 2 20mm cannon load out. The 190a8 is so grossly overmodeled why would anyone fly anything else   The p51 is comparable to WBs p51 but the 190 in AH just rocks. Handles great,can out turn a flea on a dogs back and laser cannons that can move mountains. You cant do this with the 190a8 in WB  

Untill Tempest or Typhoon come out,i wont fly anything but the 190  

Typhoon: <-- Yup,waiting for grossly overmodeled Tempest & Typhoon ..

[This message has been edited by Typhoon (edited 12-25-1999).]

Offline dolomite

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 1999, 10:05:00 PM »
Typhoon-

The dolomite fish sniffs the bait and passes on...

Offline Dingy

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 1999, 12:12:00 AM »
Think this is a troll Dolomite?  Im not so sure.  As of the last few days, I've switched out my P51 for a 190 and racked up the kills.  Sure its easier to stay alive in a P51 since you can flee anything but nothing lasts against a nice burst of those 190s!  

Once you get in deep with the 190 its VERY hard to get out but if you use E fiting and keep your SA about ya, the 190 is QUITE formidable.

-Ding

TT

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 1999, 02:34:00 AM »
 Ive killed 284 UFO-D,s this tour. Mostly with FW. They do get over confdent as noted above. You need a big alt advantage then hit wep and dive with all trim setting neutral. In other words haul prettythang. You dont have to sweat the compresshion problems of the 109. And you never turn fight with the things. If you got the E you can have one turn, thats it. As mentioned above, they will turn into a spit on ya.

 Also and most importantly never HO with one,if you can get out of it. They have magical HO guns. the only thing that can HO with one is the Spit which also has magic HO guns.  

Offline janneh

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 1999, 04:39:00 AM »
Nice lecture Hristo, perhaps You should make a site about this subject  
I'd love to read more of it.

Offline Hristo

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 1999, 05:09:00 AM »
Janneh, you have it all at The 109 bible. I am just trying to apply those rules.

One very important thing is the fuel in P 51D. If it has 50% or more fuel, it is inside reality limits. But when low on fuel, they really turn into UFOs. Just yesterday I watched them climb to me, take shots until 0 speed (!) and hammerhead back down. No spin, just perfect hammerhead, dive to pick up speed and here they were again, zooming and shoooting. I was coordinating my zoom climb with rudder, no slipping or anything, and was climbing at some 165 IAS between attacks.

I was at 50-60 % of main fuel tank in 109, and it was frightening. They confirmed they were very low on fuel.

There is also a story at ik's site, when Lawrence Thompson met Hartmann's G-14 (our G-10 is even better than G-14). See his description of P 51D high AoA and low speed handling and try to compare it to the thing we have in AH right now.  


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-26-1999).]

Offline -aper-

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 1999, 06:17:00 AM »
Hristo

It's a Xmas present to you.
Here is the film of the fight you described:
 ftp://ftp.diploma.ru/incoming/aper_hristo.zip

So you can see it from my FE

<Salute>

Offline Hristo

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how to kill ufo 51in a ??? 51drivers need not read
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 1999, 06:50:00 AM »
Thanks, -aper- !

Now I know why you weren't aggressive at the end, seems I pulled lucky HO and got your engine. Whew ! I must say, it looks far worse for me on your FE  

I have the same fight filmed. However, it was filmed only because I forgot to switch off the recorder from an earlir sortie (some 650kb total). I can still mail it to you if you want (ICQ 33652441).

<SALUTE>

P.S.
I admit you are the most unpleasant pilot in the Arena for me, so I stay away from Knights when I see you in the roster