Author Topic: A quick comparison of Aces High (Read 3510 times)

chester · « **Reply #45 on:** October 15, 1999, 07:59:00 AM »

HITECH,thank you for the responce. i do understand the basic of this and other on-line sims.....i ask you consider these points.............A game is defined as a conflict involving gains and losses between two or more opponents who follow formal rules....YOU acused me of try to ram rules down other throats..NEVER, on this or any board have i tried to expound a certin set of rules. BUT a GAME must have rules or it is not a GAME.Use your basketball example,remove the rules and ask yourself what you would end up with.In real life they are called Rules of Engagement.They are very clear.No combat pilot leaves the ground without firm understanding of them.But the point is without rules to govern game play,game play cannot exist.What does exist is a form of anarchy.Every player does whatever they want whenever they want.You are a smart guy.How long will something exist in an un-stable state?......Point 2....What about DEATH?...now i could ,as a disabled combat veteran,climb on a very high soapbox on this point,but wont. What i will ask is.If you are making an atempt at modeling a combat enviorment and you leave out one of the MAJOR factors for that enviorment what do you get?DEATH is the overwhelimg decision maker in combat.Missions and objectives are won,not from inclination,but training and disapline.The herd instinct is VERY strong in combat.Sure you could take your weapon an go JOHN WAYNEing for Charlie any night you wanted.Dont understand why that didnt happen.IN these on-line things, no death causes a lack of realistic behavior by the players. Thats where these things break-down.Thats one of the major factors to the total lack of a belivabilty in on-line sims(sims isnt right either is it?)You understand modling and simulation......PS. Guy i was not squeaking.I am a professional squeaker.(and if billable hrs. are any indication, a fairly good one) You will know when i start to squeak. I have only tried to get the players to form,by concenus,a set of guidelines to bring some order.I will contune.Many of us here have been around a lone time.On-line multiplayer gaming is new.It will evolve.Mabey. Or it will die.I have instrust in seeing evolution.

Horn · « **Reply #46 on:** October 15, 1999, 08:52:00 AM »

Chester.

Just One Word.

Paragraphs.

Pls use them.

Gracias,

dh

DICK! · « **Reply #47 on:** October 15, 1999, 11:03:00 AM »

Hey Chester! I think I've got the "death" thing figured out. HiTech could maybe provide a "death signal" back to your computer that could be used to trigger an external relay through COM1 at the exact moment that you get blown into bits. Then you could weave some real fine copper wire into the fabric of your computer chair (just under your ass). Connect the end of this grid through a normally open relay contact and back to the nearest 115 Volt outlet. Next, wrap a copper strap around your neck and connect it to ground (any old copper pipe in your house should work nicely). Now just sit in the old chair, plug everything in....and FLY!

Next time you get killed, you should have a more satisfying "game play" experience.

Please, no thanks are necessary...I love helping make Game Play more real and immersive.

Your PAL,
DICK!

PS. Please advise on how to be paid for squeaking. My wife should have enough "billable hours" of squeaking accumulated since our wedding for the both of us to retire immediately. Thanks.

[This message has been edited by DICK! (edited 10-15-1999).]

indian · « **Reply #48 on:** October 15, 1999, 11:35:00 AM »

Chester you talking about Strategy in this game. Also remeber this is a BETA!!!.

All you other guys He a Veteran so give him a small break. He has the right to post his request here as we do.

I would like to see some sort of stratagy employed here such as supply trucks and trains would be nice. Would like to see computer controlled ground war that needs air support, this could be used to capture airfields. This wouldnt have to be to complicated but enough that we whould have to defend against them or loose our bases. Would like to see computer controlled bombers making bomb runs that need escort, these could be taken over by players as needed or as the player pleases. I believe this would stop some of the low level furballs and would bring a more historic feel to the game.

I think it would be fun to go an straffing runs against 2000 GI's and tanks or to go down in the canyon and take out a supply trian that is rushing to resupply a damaged field. Here is another new point the airfields would have to be resupplied by truck or trian and not just by time.

No w you want game play go to tower click on new button on clipboard called mission. Get mission assignment to go support resupply of base such and such, or fly escort for bombing run to field such and such. Points awarded for successful flight, or if you a bomber pilot have option to join or take over bomber in flight. Computer controls battle for each side and assigns misson to those who want them. those who want to fly at will still can. Some Germans did that.

------------------
Tommy (INDIAN) Toon

My Homepage

indians Homepage

Aces High Word6 and Wordpad Doc's available on my web site.

phaetn · « **Reply #49 on:** October 15, 1999, 11:50:00 AM »

Actually Chester has a really good point.

The problem is how can it be implemented without scaring away consumers? People won't pay to be penalized for having their own sort of fun.

Frankly, I get a big kick out of flying historically and realistically. But sometimes I just want to chase someone into a situation that I wouldn't dare risk in real life; the rush is getting out of it alive. If I am that way, how many others who aren't into the history want to just furball?

The answer has to based on the players themselves, not the game. If it was in the game it would attract only a small percentage of an already niche market: that would be financial suicide.

Instead, players with a historical bent organize scenarios and the like where it is a one life per frame event. These generate a lot of tension and people do fly in groups for protection and plan historically correct missions. Seeing unidentified dots in these conditions is[/i] scary and generally provokes historically correct encounters: i.e. only attack with advantage.

Remember on-line games are a product that has to be available 24/7 and has to appeal to a wide variety of playing styles. Penalties for unhistorical behaviour would make it not appealing enough for the general market and hinder the revenue stream. Aces High is still in an early Beta. Eventually more systems will be in place that will allow people to do more than they can now and things like scenarios will be available. Just hang tight. When this game goes pay for play you will see more historically minded people because they have to be willing to pay for the service; those who just want a free ride will go somewhere else.

In the meantime, if you want immersion, generate it yourself: fly what you consider realistically and hang out with other people who do the same.

Cheers,

------------------
phaetnAT
Aces High Alpha Tester

chester · « **Reply #50 on:** October 15, 1999, 11:52:00 AM »

HORN,your ok with the spelling??

Brig.Gen.STING-94TH · « **Reply #51 on:** October 15, 1999, 12:41:00 PM »

Horn........ I don't know about you,butI'm not going to critisize someone who is a disabled Vet.on his paragrahing, after he explained he is disabled and has a prob. typing and posting,but wanted to air his views(I know chester personally. He's the one that turned me on to this beta).
Every sim I've flown and there are hundreds has had some set of rules. Hitect compared it this game to basketball.......Do they in basketball grab the ball, run down the court without dribbling and knock down anybody in thier way to score? I don't think so....... They have a set of rules and refs.
I do understand this is a beta, and a darn good one from what I've seen. But, it is far to unorganized. I think this is a prob.that the pilots themselves will have to work out....and from who I've seen on,pilots such as greybeard, I know it will eventually be taken care of...
B.T.W thanks greybeard on the luck for SQUAD WARS, the 94th was the only squad of 8 that paticapated that went UNDEFEATED.....round 2 should be exciting.
WESTLY ....Um <cough> GeNeRaL.This is a _____ (wait for it)______ hold on...... beta.
Buddy, you can make fun of my rank anytime you like too, but I am proud to be second in command of the 94th Aero Squadron on Flying Circus.....its an honor guy something I'm sure you wouldn't understand..

------------------
Brig.Gen.STING-94TH
"Cover your 6 or you might get stung"

[This message has been edited by Brig.Gen.STING-94TH (edited 10-15-1999).]

chester · « **Reply #52 on:** October 15, 1999, 12:50:00 PM »

phaten,thanx. It is a problem,the bean counting thing,that must be considered. Comunity concenus,i belive is the way.Still do we want to establish open arena furballings as the baseline,de rigor,on-line sim experance.Or should it be the option to the "you are really the pilot,dont die"experance ?

hitech · « **Reply #53 on:** October 15, 1999, 01:26:00 PM »

First off Chester I didn't accuse you of anything I asked a simple question which you answered and thus we got started with a constructive thread.

Anyway on to rules.
There are a lot of rules in Aces High most are transparently handled by the code, for instance vulching.

You can't vulch with out first destroying the ack.

No shooting friendlys.

Once you are out of ammo you can no longer kill someone.

These are only a few of the rules .

Anyway where we disagree is on some of the basic premisses of what the game should be.

My assumtion is you belive the game should be a WWII simulator. I do not belive that Aces High should be a WWII simulator,and it shows up in our description of what aces high is on our home page. Aces High primary purpose is an ACM simulator that uses WWII aircraft. At times AH will be used as a WWII simulator but this will be in senario base functions and other events.

DEATH:

Death is only a piece of the scoring mechinism of the game. Based on my statement above that we are not trying to recreate WWII
,death should view from a gameplay only perspective and how does one wish the game play to evolve.

There is one key element that is quite simple but a lot of people seem to forget. For a kill to be scored someone must die.

When you slant the game on the wanting to live side you will automaticly reduce the number of kills the average player gets. This is a simple game mechanism that can not be avoided.

From a game play view Kills are offense Deaths are defense. When you put to much wieght on deaths you end up making a totaly defensive game. Games MUST be balanced between offense and defense or you end up not having a game. Ive seen the consiquences of making death to much of a penaltity and what happens is players spend hours trying to find one fight. Death as it stands now does have consiquences and more will be added in the future. But care must always be taken to balance Kills v Deaths.

HiTech

Zanth · « **Reply #54 on:** October 15, 1999, 05:51:00 PM »

Does anyone else smile quietly to themselves when someone starts spoutin off about "realism" - and site as their credentials years of flight sim flying?

Real life is not ever, at least for a long long time anyway, going to be found inside anyone's computer. But fun games sure are. People like fun games, people pay money to play em, especially the really fun ones.

DICK! · « **Reply #55 on:** October 15, 1999, 07:51:00 PM »

I dunno Zanth, I get "REAL" mad at my computer when it locks up!

DICK!

chester · « **Reply #56 on:** October 16, 1999, 08:50:00 AM »

HITECH,once again thank you for your reply.I know time is of great value to you at this point.To spend some engaging an anonomus poster shows me something.thanx......I dont atempt to get you to alter what your doing.I doubt HTC's business plan has a "we will figer it out as we go entry".At the same time i doubt this will be your last go at game design....." When you find something that works,make a lot of it", has long drivin the marketplace.WARBIRDS,i relize,is held as the "gold ring of this genre.I belive their sucess has much to to with placement,and demographics.It certanly isnt because of value............The internet is growing expotentialy.The demographics of on-line gaming will change with its growth.(the U.S.government projects internet entertainment earnings to surpass that of Hollywood in the year 2000)This expansion in the marketplace will cause great changes to gaming.The "point and shoot"style of gaming may have to give way."Forced co-operation,persistint enviorment"type play is making headway.It will be interesting to watch on-line gaming evolve.I dont envoy your position,but do admire your moxie.........It's only through hard work and heartache,by you and others in your industry,that this old man even has venue to express opinion.........That is respected,and valued.

Brazos · « **Reply #57 on:** October 16, 1999, 04:01:00 PM »

Chester,

Please hit the <enter> key every 4-5 lines. Until you do most wont read your posts. Fighting thru a wall of text is unpleasent. And someone help STUNG with his knot, he's wrapped too tight! If you think a sim should offer more, offer constructive comments. If you want a sim to follow your rules, learn to code. Enjoy what we have, it's gonna get better and better.

jmccaul · « **Reply #58 on:** October 16, 1999, 04:28:00 PM »

I believe it would be a bad stratergy to make a game which can only be playable under strict rules of engagement in order to make players fly in a certain manner as it would alienate a fair proportion of a smallish user base.
I do though believe arena play would be more enjoyable, for me at least, if there was *less* (not no) low alt furballing and people flew much more in formations of a few planes (i believe helping players to do this would have several positive effects).
I think a system that let players fly with other planes when they wanted to with little organization but yet still let people have total freedom to do what they want without being penalised would be perfect.

P.S. i don't believe high death penalties is productive or realistic. Pilots were afraid of dying but a mission was always flown as to the objectives set out not only if we outnumber the enemy.

chester · « **Reply #59 on:** October 17, 1999, 07:29:00 AM »

BRAZOS,you mean follow the "RULES" of grammer.