"It was God's will"

[AKIron]

Chairboy, I have to admit to getting emotional from time to time (only because it's obvious to everyone else ) but have to agree that it is counter productive to resolving differences.

When it comes to a religion-free utopia as "imagined" by John Lennon and so many others I have to point out that this isn't just some hippy ideal but has been put into practice in the 20th century with murderous results never seen before in recorded history.  You cannot champion a religion-free society without facing this.

[Red Tail 444]

Wow.

These are relative terms. VERY few people truly consider themselves evil. Nearly everyone considers themselves good.

Reagan considered the USSR evil. They didn't.

The US is not evil, we're the good guys, so why are we being called "the great satan?"

Hannity's book calls liberals evil. Liberals call conservatives evil and hateful. Both respective parties believe they are the ones doing the good and noble thing. Go figure...

No one's gonna win this argument.

I doubt OBL, SH, Hitler, Pol Pot, and countless others thought they were doing evil. They probably all believed they were doing the world and their contry a huge friggin favor.

[Red Tail 444]

Wow.

These are relative terms. VERY few people truly consider themselves evil. Nearly everyone considers themselves good.

Reagan considered the USSR evil. They didn't.

The US is not evil, we're the good guys, so why are we being called "the great satan?"

Hannity's book calls liberals evil. Liberals call conservatives evil and hateful. Both respective parties believe they are the ones doing the good and noble thing. Go figure...

No one's gonna win this argument.

I doubt OBL, SH, Hitler, Pol Pot, and countless others thought they were doing evil. They probably all believed they were doing the world and their contry a huge friggin favor.

[Chairboy]

I agree, AKIron, but I hope you'll acknowledge the other side, that you can't talk about an all-religious utopia without considering the Taliban or Iran.  

Like politics, both sides of the religious debate have their extremists.  

I don't advocate a religious free society, quite the contrary.  I think religion is a personal thing that should not be used as a rationale for imposing control on others.  When law is changed to conform with the views of a religion, everyone else loses.  The same is true when a government tries to outlaw ALL religion.

[AKIron]

I agree Chairboy, lot of bad things done in the name of religion. I'm sure you are aware that it was the religious leaders of the day that sent Christ to be crucified.

If everyone followed the golden rule: "do unto others as you would have them do unto you", life would be better all around for everyone.

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by AKIron
Some of you seem to be overlooking something here in regards to "evil". Evil is defined by religion. If there were no religion there would be no evil, only misguided or depraved "good" people. This seems to be a flaw in Chairboys quote:

Who's arguing with Chairboy?  I'm just here shooting at Nuke.

Here, I'll say what Weinberg probably meant. "All forms of religion are a pox on the arse of humanity."

As for what you've just mentioned, it amounts to the idea that "Evil" is an invention and what passes for "Evil" in Bangladesh might well be good manners in Austin.

What is illegal or possibly against norms of society in Bangladesh will certainly vary from Austin, but there are certainly actions which will repulse humanity in all regions.

The idea that humanity is only able to define itself by the mythic rantings of poorly adjusted cretins is misguided in my opinion.

To be sure, religion is an important element which helps shape the form of civilization but to a large extent, religion has been a defiler of civility.

Look at our constitution for many examples of people trying to escape the effects of religion and royalty.  History teaches us that religion is inherently evil/bad/negative influence (pick your word) when it comes to organizing the affairs of mankind.

It's not that religion defines evil, rather it's that organized religion is evil because it gives its practitioners the necessary escape hatch when they wish to do something nasty.  Examples on request ...

It is unwise to define something (evil) in terms of something (organized religion) which is inherently evil.

curly

[AKIron]

I guess we need to define our terms here Curly to be sure that we are on the same ballfield?

It would seem that you are saying evil is not an absolute but rather defined by a society or culture?

I won't argue that people do evil things in the name of religion. I also won't argue that religion isn't used to control people for evil purposes. Afterall, I believe we are all sinners and thus evil, hence the need for salvation.

I will argue against religion being the root of evil. Like I said, there have been far greater atrocities committed in the name of freeing mankind from religion than vice versa.

[GRUNHERZ]

Originally posted by AKcurly
Concerning animism, you're wrong, Grun.  Shinto has no "higher power."  Everything has a kami, including inanimate objects.

curly

Higher power or existance, by this I mean spirits, something beyond the normal pgysical realm.. Thats the whole point of animism.  Inn the various old animism religions spirtits actively influence people in the real the world, they have some sort of other worldly "higher" power - for example in animism an amulet  has it's own sacred other worldly power  - it does not imply god... Yet it is still a religion.

Straffo.

Commonunsim dont like competetion...

Yep thats why its against religion, communists see religion as something bad and want to eliminate it to make the world "better." That doesnt make communism a religion....

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by AKIron
I guess we need to define our terms here Curly to be sure that we are on the same ballfield?

It would seem that you are saying evil is not an absolute but rather defined by a society or culture?

I will argue against religion being the root of evil. Like I said, there have been far greater atrocities committed in the name of freeing mankind from religion than vice versa.

 

No, just the opposite.  I believe "Evil" by definition cuts across all forms of society.  In other words, "Evil" isn't defined by arbitrary rules which make up society.

And no, of course religion isn't the root of "Evil."  But men use religion to justify "Evil", thus the Weinberg quotation.

curly

[AKIron]

Originally posted by AKcurly
No, just the opposite.  I believe "Evil" by definition cuts across all forms of society.  In other words, "Evil" isn't defined by arbitrary rules which make up society.

And no, of course religion isn't the root of "Evil."  But men use religion to justify "Evil", thus the Weinberg quotation.

curly

Men use all sorts of reasons to justify evil. It doesn't require religion for that, which if I understand the quote correctly is what he said.

Mama usta say "evil is as evil does."

[myelo]

People with Schizophrenia and related diseases often suffer hallucinations where they hear voices that tell them to do things. In many cases, the patient believes these voices come from God or secret government agents of some sort.

Of course nobody other than the patient actually blames God or the government for this.

Unless they themselves have some sort of …

…uh oh

[AKIron]

I usta hear voices telling me to get off my lazy bellybutton and help with the house cleaning. Thought it was just the devil 'till she hit me with a broom.