... in defense of the Mustang.....

[lemur]

You deride the whiners and then you blast into a well reasoned response from fishu...

Ahem.

It's my opinion that the 51 is modeled pretty close with the exception of the acceleration and lower speed turning capability. While it doesn't turn quite as well as other planes at low speed it still turns too well.

But I suspect the low speed handling will be tweaked for ALL planes pretty soon.

And right now I suspect the 'uber' handling of the 51 is more a matter of some 'unter' modeling of the other planes. It seems to me that there's a long list a small gripes about the various other planes that once addressed  will cut the 'stang down to size.

Plus the addition of a few more planes will also balance this one out a tad.

Just wait until folks start whining about the p-38 or the low alt capabilities of the p-39 or the durability of the lightning?

Me? I can't wait for the a-26  

~Lemur

[214CaveJ]

the 51s are ufo's and that's that.  Plain and simple, and I can't wait til the refine the FMs and reign them in.  Been several times I've taken a 109 up just to have an ufo jump on my six and end up on the deck turning on the edge of a stall, and _nothing_ I can do about it.  Hard breaks on the edge of stall w/ the ufo at d600 and it hangs right there with me.  Rolling scissors to try and cause an overshoot and the ufo is glued to me arse.

And as for diving.  My preferred rides are the fort and the hawg.  Been many a time I've been hunting in me hawg and seen an ufo d5k below me.  I roll'er over and drop on this ufo.  I get to about d1k (flipping zoom ever so often to check aspect angle) and this ufo buries its nose and dives away from me, when I'm _already_ in a dive on him.  Now I know I'm not the greatest stick in AH, and never claim to be, but I think it's pretty hard for me to screw up a dive (yes, I was watching me trim) and let an ufo get away.

[Hristo]

Hint to "you don't fly P 51D" and "you don't have a single kill in P 51D" accusers.

Some people fly under different handles when flying other planes. That goes for the pilot mentioned above. He HAS considerable time in all the planes. It might surprise you he has better K/D and kill per time ratios in P 51D than you do. Not to mention, how would it look for him to fly P 51D as a CO of JG 51 ?

And even being on recieving end of the P 51D can teach a lot. How far can you go against one ? What to expect in given situation ? How to counter its moves ? No need to fly the Pony. Fly the bird you know the best and compare it to the skilled pilot in P 51D against you. Use a guncam to analyze the duel after. You perfect your Pony flying and I will do my best in 109, so we can see close our contest is matched. So far no complaints but few on my side. And yes, I have tried the Pony too, but the plane just doesn't interest me.

Next thing: you do a maneuver hundreds of times in 109. You got it almost perfected in it. By all your understanding 109 should excel at it. Well, I tried it just few times in P 51D. It did it better every time. Enough said. I don't need 500 sorties in Pony to atest that.

Accusing someone to attack only when unseen or just padding score by attacking buffs is pretty lame. How do you attack, Hangtime ? Do you announce your attack on open channel and attack from disadvantage ?


P.S.
Lemur pointed it out. These 2 things are suspicious in P 51D modeling. Rest is OK, IMO.


[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 12-27-1999).]

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Hmm.
I see 2 things to say;
The 1st thread was not as much an accusation of the P51 as a thread on how to handle killing it.
2nd I agree that there are at least a few things that are "suspicious" about the P51 handling. In a dive I too see these planes walking away from me in full dive. I think it's because they accelerate a step more than they should. My biggest gripe is the P51's low speed handling. I _HATE_ this. I think if the P51 was properly a tub of stalling crap in 100 IAS knife fights nobody would complain about it. I never mention it in the radio buffer but my teeth grind when I take a P51 to the deck in my LA-5FN slash his E out and get him into the low speed knife fight I need to kill him. Just to watch him do wild scissors at 100 IAS and sustained turns to gain the overshoot or keep himself alive long enough to accelerate and run. as it is I have to change my tactics to fighting it like I would a hi powered 109 or something. I should have no problem forcing a low speed stang 200ft off the deck to auger trying to turn away from me.

However I am sure these things will be addressed. It is a beta and they know of these things. I myself am looking apprehensivly to the fuller models. I can't wait to see what changes will happen.

------------------
If your in range, so is the enemy.

[janneh]

I have only 3-4 flight experience on P-51, so I don't have a clue how to fly it (althought I qualified accroding to Hristo(I ran pretty good) , as a P-51 dweeb point of view, I'd say it isn't any TnB plane.
It burns its E quite fast even in fast speeds (yeah, I always had more than 50% fuel left).
I've seen really great E fights done with P-51 (someone who knows how to fly it).
Still P-51 is quite safe plane to start learning fights(if You, for some reason, don't wanna fly spit, You always have "run" option, even thought You'll immediatly being accused by runstanging.
I say, he/she who want to fly P-51 let him/her do it ! If you wanna fly C.205, hell, fly it ! It's everyones own decision and let's respect it !
 

[Fishu]

I have done stall fightning in P-51, can't get rid of 109 habbits
It does it fairly well for a plane which should be worse to handle than 109 at stall fights.
(like that 8 kill sortie in dweebstang... half of kills stall fights, 1 quickie and rest 3 were few turns and burns)

[Curly]

 Man, oh man. Between this thread and the other, the anti-christ-stang thread, I'm deep
into my second package of Depends......

 roflma...pimp...

Oh cripes. I gotta go change myself again



[This message has been edited by Curly (edited 12-27-1999).]

[fd ski]

 

8. BF109 was best climbing and accerlating planes during WW2, this gustav 10 was also very fast.

Yeah, right. Let's have spitfire 14 modeled ( early 1944 ) or better model of 9 ( HF or LF climb better then F model )  and then we can talk.

This "i should be able to point my nose up and get a go home free card" whining of 109 drivers is so boring....

Go ahead. Tell me a story about GM1 ...


------------------


Bartlomiej Rajewski
S/L fd-ski Sq. 303 (Polish) "Kosciuszko" RAF
   www.raf303.org  

[Mr.ED]

Well, well, A subject I do know something about.

First of all, the MA-duce 50cal isn't modeled correctly in ANY sim I've ever flown. AH comes closer than WB or AW3.

Gang, this is a supersonic round, with a high rate of fire.
I have fired many types of 50 cals, and I have seen the damage it does to armor plating, buildings,and vehicles.
This should be the most feared weapon in the air, not the slow,short range chunkers.

If these 50 cals were correctly modeled, you in a 17 should be able to shoot down a single attacking 109 from 3k away, 2k if you are a crappy shot. One the other hand the 109 would have to close to 1k or less to fire.

What I do is, when I get to 200-300 yards fire and barrel roll (really a qazie 6 point roll). chainsaws the wings right off! Tracers look real purdy spirialing too :-)

Of all the Ponys I've driven, AH's gives me the feel of flyin'. I drive high, fast and don't T&B with my pony.
In the ocean of aircraft the P-51d is the Barrcuda of the sky & should be driven that way.

Mr.ED
Pony Driver
Knight

[Hristo]

 

Gang, this is a supersonic round, with a high rate of fire.

Most rounds, except .45 ACP maybe, are supersonic. Speed of sound is 330 m/s roughly, even MG FF shell has some 570 m/s. You imply 109 uses subsonic rounds ? Why, it has subsonic silencer ammo or something ?

 

Yeah, right. Let's have spitfire 14 modeled ( early 1944 ) or better model of 9 ( HF or LF climb better then F model ) and then we can talk.

If you think you really need it, go ahead. G-10 is enough for LW pilots right now. Well, maybe a 262 from time to time  

 

This "i should be able to point my nose up and get a go home free card" whining of 109 drivers is so boring....

But we can do it, even now

And with the trade off, G-10 might jump you with TnB, like K-4 could whip Spit XIV in WB.

[Fishu]

Fd ski: whats wrong with spitfire, doesn't it kill already enough fairly?
At least I kill way more in it than in 109.


Mr.Ed, 2-3k? hah! what have you been using, some modern modified .50 caliber gun, with some depleted uranium rounds or what those were? (note: with that depleted uranium stuff, bullet flies way longer distances, than some bullet with only some steel composite)
I've even heard of B-17 gunners beind told not to shoot beyond 1000 yards, just to conserve ammunition.
So, can I have those depleted uranium ammunition for my 190 also in that case .. pretty please  
btw. If I would be buff driver, I would be more feared of 20mm or 30mm than .50 caliber.. see, .50 caliber has less effective range than heavy cannon ammo. (not to talk about how they blow)

Don't go compare modern M2<something> with modern ammunition, to something that was its older model from WW2, with ammunition of that time.

[Minotaur]

HangTime;

WOW ! Well said. <Salute>

I fly all the planes myself.  I fly the plane that fits my mission profile and I switch around for variety.  

As to the UberMustang, the UberUFO or the UberGoober, I really have no clue.   I feel some individuals have actually discredited their very good arguements.  It often just ends up sounding like UberWhining.  

BTW what is Uber?   My only recollection is from the book series based on the planet "Gor", Uber meaning King.  The "Tarnsmen of Gor", blow any dust off?  

Mino

[Flathat]

Uber is the German prefix meaning "over". Ubermensch=Overman, etc.

Flathat the Unterpilot

------------------
Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail

[Hangtime]

Hristo! Salute!  Every LW plane I engage; I engage with the assumption YOU are at the controls. Can't wait till I get a crack at yah. I expect to lose; I also expect to learn.. just as i did when I ran up against Daniko. By the way.. that guy seems to have no trouble flyin the FW; nope; none at all. Maybe he should be leadin that LW squad.. he knows how to use the tools.
   _____________________________ _____
Accusing someone to attack only when unseen or just padding score by attacking buffs is pretty lame. How do you attack, Hangtime ? Do you announce your attack on open channel and attack from disadvantage ?
_____________________________ ________________

Nope.. I don't and neither do you. Nor does anybody else. (at least not the sane ones. ) I do however have an entirely diffrent set of priorites from a score-hound. And that's the point. Having been in at least TWICE the number of furballs in MY plane of choice than HE has; I guess I can state with SOME authority he's full of crap regarding WHO's doing the running IN WHAT.

If yah look at the first line in the message Fishu posted you will note his question of my qualifications in the P51D. Having done so; I felt he kicked open the door to a rather close examination of HIS qualifications.

As you'll note in the follow on post to the pilot in question I've seen him around the WB's free play arena.. He was a score-hound then; I think he's a score-hound now. And in my opinion; his score card confirms it. And gentlemen.. I do have a right to my opinion. Further; having far more experience than him; (I too have several other on line AH personas.. care to lump the score and points for comparison??) I got a little annoyed at the tone.. so; FLAME ON!  

As to my attack style.. you'll find me in the furballs. Clearin my team and squadmates sixes. Runnin desperation field defense or enforcing field caps prior to closing. In short.. I fly a diffrent game than Fishu does.. I'm in the sim for entirely different reasons; not ONE of them has to do with a scorecard.

Now; please don't get me wrong.. If Fishu or anyone else wants ta fly a 'scorecard' simulation; well, fine by me. These guys don't affect my enjoyment of the sim one iota.. till they start makin noises about my choice of aircraft, or classify me as a 'Dweebstang" driver or "runstang" pilot because the AC modeling of my plane of prefrence is not to HIS personal taste, and do so in the text buffer ad-nasuem while he's trollin around at 30k bored outta his wits DOES cut into my enjoyment of the sim.  

Which in fact IS the second point of the original post.. Whining in the textbox; remember? And.. how much BETTER it is to do it HERE on the BBS and NOT in the text buffer on-line.

Finally; the other point made and repeated twice... THIS IS BETA. A/C flight models ARE NOT FINISHED. The Developers are flying almost every day and night, and are exceptionaly competent at what they do.

So; regarding my 'Lame' attack on poor whining Fishu; well; tit fer tat.. He decided to lump me in a class of pilots under heading "dweebstang driver" (without checkin the scorecard system he seems to treasure) I felt it was appropriate ta post his scores; call black black; and let the folks make up their OWN minds based on what they have seen and heard. (ad nasuem  )

Hang



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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8

[-floo-]

LOL you guys are killing me LOL!  

If you guys aren't complaining about my B17 then you're complaining about my P51  

ROFL! (wipes lauing tears from his eyes)

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-floo- fangs out
463rd Bomb Group
15th Air Force