Author Topic: ... in defense of the Mustang.....  (Read 2438 times)

Offline Hangtime

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« on: December 26, 1999, 12:02:00 PM »
tsk; tsk; tsk..  from reading some of the negative on-line comments regarding the AH P51D's "uber" performance and "UFO" characteristics; well, one might get the impression it's overmodeled more than, say; the Gustav... I say the complaints are for the most part bogus!@!

First.. the P51D does spin.. and if you wait too long to get the nose down and/or overcontrol at ANY speed; it'll snap right out. Yes; it's not as unforgiving in these attitudes as it could/should be; (it's all BETA flight modeling!) but I've seen the same characteristic in FW's and 109's used to exceptional advantage too.. so this is no Mustang Exclusive.

Second.. It's climb when light is very good; as it should be; and when loaded with fuel or ext tanks it ain't. If yah haul it up into a climb without FIRST getting a head of steam on; well; yer porked. Get the plane moving about 300ias and then angle up to 3500fps climb rate; she'll climb fairly well to about 180 IAS; then sag out. I've been routinely outclimbed by La5's; 109's and spits at same energy states. The 'climb advantage' of the P51 is pure smoke and mirrors. More Propaganda.  

Next.. the Mustang does not out-turn a spit or a Niki, (or La5 or C205 of Bf109), and is easily whipped up on in a knife-fight by just about anything in the sim.. even a C47 can get inside a Mustang in a low E high G turn. The Mustang's main T&B weapon is energy.. if it gets slow it's beaten in the turns. What most people interpet as a superior turn is in fact just the Mustang going around a LARGER circle faster then the other guys slower plane making it around it's SMALLER circle. Sharp Mustang pilots using yo-yo's and good SA can stay with the more manuverable adversarys for a few turns; but the extended turnfight advantage rests with the more nimble knife-fighter. As for the Mustangs alleged 'over acceleration'.. pure crap. I've watched far too many La5's and 109's crawl right up my bellybutton from a standing runway start to buy into that one either. Only hope the stang has for an extension from most planes is a dive.. and try using a Mustang to dive away from a FU41d or and FW and yah get a real surprise.

Then of course.. the weaknes of the Stang.. 2 ping engine death. Bright reflective aluminum skin against a dark green groundcover. The miserable accel. The weak MG's. Poor turner in the clutch; lousy vertical fighter. The strength of the Gustav.. absorbs a tremndous volume of fire.. and flies away. Imagine.. fully 1/3 smaller in physical size is the Gustav compared to the stang.. a much smaller target.. and it can absorb TWICE the volume of hits and continue the fight. And the guys flying this FAST and EXCEPTIONALLY DANGEROUS uber Bf that can WALK AWAY from the stang in a climb, toting an exceptional weapons loadout gripe about the Two Ping underpowered stang??? LOL! And then there's the magic Levitating Gustav.. 100IAS and going up still at 3000fpm. Amazing.

IMHO it's the pilot that makes the Mustang dangerous. Having the very same fat head that all good fighter pilots are blessed with (I figure I can take on anything; and will sure as hell give it the college try); I enter every fight determined to kill the adversary; confident that I can; and I go about it with ferocity and determination. Timid pilots die quick.

Now; fact is some pilots are more determined than others.. skills vary. A/C relative energy states are critical. Knowledge of the plane and its capability... gunnery; SA; weight of numbers.. all these play a FAR LARGER part in the outcome of any fight than the A/C themselves.

On many occasions I have run up against a very competent and determind pilot in an FW; La5, Bf or another P51 and come away dead. Sometimes the fight went the other way. The old saw "some days yah get the bear.. somedays it gets you" applies. I've never considered that I got whipped up on by a superior A/C.. no matter what I'm flying. fact is; I got whipped by a superior pilot doing his thing just right.. He made fewer mistakes.. he engaged with e advantage.. he used superb wing tactics; he used terrain to his advantage... or he got lucky.  

Some guys; good pilots too boot, (hi TOWD  ) have this cretin impulse to immediatly upon their demise in their fav plane start a rant on the open freq about how my poor choice of flying the American 'uber plane' killed them. This is a very cheap dodge from the facts.. yah; that's right! Yah got whupped by someone who out thought yah; out fought yah and out shot yah.

My plane; without me; is just a pile of "poorly assembled made in USA junk" (quote from TOWD) sitting in a hanger. With a skilled pilot in the cockpit; it's a very dangerous machine indeed. And this is equally true for every gun totin plane in the sim. So; whiners.. take yer whuppins like men. If yah can't stand yer hardware choice; get another plane.. but fer crissakes stop bellyachin.. if yer dead; yer dead. Shaddup. The dead shouldn't be fillin the text box with complaints after the fact.. one of the key points of bein dead... yer DEAD. sahaddup already   Take yer gripe HERE to the BBS and leave us the hell alone while on-line!

So.. having finished MY rant; I'll just say it'd sure be nice to NOT see the text buffer cluttered up with whining and blatant attacks on a good fight simulation with Beta flight models simply because the pilot himself blew the play. I make it a point to tell the other guy that he flew one hell of a fight when I loose.. and try to do the same when I win.

In the meantime.. look to whipping the guy with yer plane and yer skills.. not whipping up a frenzy in the text buffer.  

Hang


 

 

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 1999, 12:19:00 PM »
oh.. and I forgot.. does ANY other plane have a Tissue Paper vert fin besides the P51?

 

Hang

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Camel

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 1999, 01:08:00 PM »
I like this post!

Wtg Hang!

Offline jmccaul

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 1999, 01:41:00 PM »
   Of course the plane isn't the most important aspect it's the pilot but it is still a factor. I would wait untill the FM's start getting finalised before squeaking saying that though many many people believe the stang is overmoddeld at the moment are they all wrong?
    It's all opinions at the moment only some detailed controled flight tests will sort the matter out but what's the point as the models will be changed fairly soon.  

[This message has been edited by jmccaul (edited 12-26-1999).]

Offline Cobra

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 1999, 01:51:00 PM »
Hang,
WTG!..

I fly any planes from LA to Pony to Spit to...well u get the picture..anyway, I couldn't agree with you more on the belly-aching.  

If you get shot down, you get shot down.  It's each individuals choice as to the plane they fly.  I do like the idea that HT will strive very hard for as realistic Flight Modeling as they can (within the marketing, demographic restraints they have).  

I do not envy the task that HT and crew has in this endeavour.  They will never please all of us, but they are putting out one of the best to hit the online sim world so far.  And I'm sure they will keep pace with whatever competition brings on the next evolution of the WWII online simming experience.

But to crowd the text buffer with insults and degrading remarks because the enemy doesn't have the same plane taste as you is ridiculous and childish!  

I am definately not the best tactical flyer here, but I sure have a hell of a time in this sim, win, loose, or draw!  (Whiners not withstanding).

Anyway, this sim has drawn a wide range of folks.  Just review the BBS on some days, there are some very knowledgable folks with lots of data to share.  Sometimes to much to share, but that's why we are here...to have input on a product that we will eventually pay for (not often one gets to help in the product development phase in something we will ultimately buy!)

Anyway, my ranting is done...I got a bit off topic, but my keyboard was begging me to get this out!

All of the above being said...this is a good bunch of folks that have gathered to test out this product, and I enjoy my time "flying" the sim.

Offline Hangtime

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 1999, 02:42:00 PM »
Yup I aree Cobra.. The developers are constantly among us; flying and dying like the rest of us. They know what's what. And their efforts at producing the best of the best in flight simming are hugely appreciated. For off line critiques, the BBS works just fine in exchanging ideas and technical data.. as it should be.

All in all.. I suspect the whiners will shut up and leave when it comes time ta put their money down. In the meantime; I GREATLY appreciate the quality of combat in the sim and well considered insights of our fellow pilots on the BBS. There are damn few real pissy whiners out there.. sadly, these few can make the experience far less than enjoyable for the majority on occasion...

Worse, I fear the impressions being made on the newer pilots amongst us just getting started with the sim will be negative based on the asinine comments being made on the general frequency. First impressions are lasting ones.

So; for all the uninformed out there; there's a .squelch xxxxxx command.. and I use it unflinchingly.  

Thanks fer yer kind replys gents.

Goodspeed yer next Mission.  

Hang



------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Fishu

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 1999, 02:54:00 PM »
Excuse me, I did not see you mentioning how experienced you are with AH P-51

..what were overmodels for Bf109? its speed?
or Fw190s?

Why are the skies filled up with stangs and spitfires usually? (stangs all around in offensive and spitfires all around in defensive)

1. climbs +3500fpm without having 300mph
2. Its MGs does kill, you must hit more than with cannons, but those guns has higher rate of fire, so youll hit in same time more than with cannons, making same effect. I have not seen any problems with killing in P-51, flew right off 8 kill sortie and couple 6 kill sorties right after. (..and felt that i got those kills way too easy)
3. Obviously you haven't met those UFO P-51 pilots
4. Pilot makes plane dangerous, but its matter how much more dangerous it becomes
5. I haven't noticed any great durability with Bf109 compared to P-51, as well loses parts to some 800-900 yards spray&pray.
6. It seems to accerlate quite fairly for being slow accerlate in real life
7. Bf109 never gets the same kills per sortie/kills per time/kills per death as P-51
(make those all together)
8. BF109 was best climbing and accerlating planes during WW2, this gustav 10 was also very fast.
9. I wouldn't go compare C-47 to P-51...

dotsie

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 1999, 03:05:00 PM »
Perfect rebuttal Hang..Ive read some post on the so called uberstang with people making claims like, it out turns so and so, climbs better than that one...bull. Ask any stang driver with a few hundred sorties (I am one, think hang is too) under his belt and he will tell ya the climb sux, sustained turn at anything below high speed is v bad, and not to mention that 6 50s can still feel like spud guns.

Most of the whining is coming from dedicated flyers of other planes who as is natural want to have the best plane possible. You wont hear their moans when they catch a 51 low and slow with an unexperienced pilot at the stick. They will use superior turn firepower and climb to tear it a new one.

It just seems some egos dont like being bursted by the same experienced 51 pilots. ts not as though the 51 was an average fighter during the war is it?

Dotsie.

Offline Hangtime

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 1999, 03:37:00 PM »
Thanks Dotsie.. yer my most favorite adversary in the sim. Even a small mistake in yer presence is usually fatal, and you always press the engagement hard. I enjoy flying against pilots of your caliber, I learn more about flying from my defeats at yer hands than from victories against pilots like Fishu... hiding at 30k.  

Since I also see u flying many diffrent AC besides the Stang, your insight is most appreciated. I have spent some time in all the AC types, looking for relative strenghts and weaknesses, and have so far; like you, come to the conclusion that for the most part; the relative merits of the planes are modeled well.

And yah.. It's not like the P51D was yer 'average' plane during the war. Much to the dissapointment of the LW.

Thanks again for your post.... Yah Bum.  

Hang

 

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Hangtime

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 1999, 04:21:00 PM »
LOL Fishu!! Pretty feeble; bud.  

>>>>Excuse me, I did not see you mentioning how experienced you are with AH P-51 <<

I have some experience, and in fact all my kills but three were in a P51. And I've killed a fair number of planes in this sim. Now;  Lets look at our respective scores to determine how we fly. (as of 5:00pm eastern, Sunday)
             
                 Hang:    Fishu:
Fighter Kills      585      212
Bomber Kills        63       93
Sorties            490      162  
Landed             116      151
Deaths             250       11
Point Ranks        16th     14th
Hit ranks          344th   272th
Overall rank       155th     8th

Hmmmmmmmmm... looks ta me like yah like ya run a heluva lot more than I do.. How so do I get the 'runstang' label? Certainly; yah have a preference fer killin buffs. My, My. What a challenge... reachin way down the food chain fer supper; bud.

Do you ever actually TURN with an adversary.. or run back to alt to preserve yer score? Do yah fly this sim for a sense of accomplishment in the arena.. help yer fellow rooks when they need it, commin down to the fight ta clear a six or are yah just another score dweeb, annoyed cause his beloved kannonen wagen prefrence is hard to fly in an actual FIGHT.

Now that we have established bona-fides... when was the last time yah actually killed someone that saw yah commin?? LOL

As for the various other items in your post.. they are in response to observations that the Mustang is not an 'uber' plane.. no more so than the FW or 109. And as the pilots that actually FLY one in a FIGHT will attest; it's quite capable of killin it's adversarys just as well as the Mustang is.

It's not your fav plane that needs adjusting Fishu.. it's you.  

Hang
 

------------------
PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8


[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 12-26-1999).]
The price of Freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle, anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness...

...at home, or abroad.

Offline Fishu

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 1999, 05:49:00 PM »
Hang: you don't seem to know anything about me..

I flew last time +30k when I chased 36k B-17 just for waste of time and used whole Fw190s fuels for it (realistic ceiling for B-17 huh?)

My usual flight altitude is 20-23k, which still seems to be way below stangs and spitfries.

I run only if I am going to have some superior numbers agains't me.
I fly most of the time alone, not with some friendly gang bangers behind me.

If I've flown P-51D, I know how to compare it to other planes.
In P-51D I don't do 5k extends or such, I fight till I kill enemy or get underdog when cavalry arrives to help my target.

Next time DO NOT say a word about my fighting style if you don't know anything about it. (obviously you don't)
Theres enough guys already telling me about 30k flying when I barely ever even go to close those levels.

I Can say that I do turn alot and maneuver very much, because I like to take plane to its limits.

Btw. I like more fightning below 10k than above it

dotsie

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 1999, 06:59:00 PM »
  Thx Hang. Must say i feel the same about ur stylee too. Love the hard fought 51 on 51 scrap   .

Fishu, if i was seeking info on the merits of the 109 (i think its ur ride). I would feel urs was a good opinion to seek. But if i want to know about the 51 urs is NOT the one i would go for. I checked ur stats and u have not had any kills in a 51 this tour. NOT 1! In tour 1 its was 47 kills but that was a couple of revisions ago. Seems to me any opinion u got on stang has come about by being on the recieving end of it. Considering u like to land ur flights im sure this is something u dont like.

I have over 900 kills in the 51 since beta began, Hang has over 600. And if both of us have come to conclusion that 51 has major weaknesses, that if its not flow to its 1 good strength its nitey night, we feel its fairly true to the performance of its RL type in ww2, then im afraid u will just have to agree cause u aint qualified to say other wise.

Hope u see what im getting at.
Dotsie.

Oops forgot...Ya Bum!

[This message has been edited by dotsie (edited 12-26-1999).]

Offline jmccaul

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 1999, 07:04:00 PM »
Be fair hang he is probably just good.

Is it not possible that the stang is overmodelled as it has been stated many times the FM's are only roughed in and this implies that all planes are wrong i.e. overmodelled or undermodelled. It may well be the case that the stang has benefited the most from this situation as one plane has to. In your opinion then what plane has benefitted most from the roughed in FM's i.e. which plane has improved the most verses real data or even just relative to the other planes.  

Offline Yeager

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 1999, 07:45:00 PM »
These FMs are incomplete and should be viewed as such.

Any hassle that arises out of arguments about *this plane* or *that planes* handling qualities are merely excercizes in futility
at this stage of developement.

Its beta, I thought everyone knew that!

Yeager
"If someone flips you the bird and you don't know it, does it still count?" - SLIMpkns

-towd_

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... in defense of the Mustang.....
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 1999, 07:49:00 PM »
51s still suc hehe