Author Topic: Why are we supporting Israel?  (Read 2619 times)

Offline Capt. Pork

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #30 on: April 15, 2004, 01:13:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Unfortunately, I am under the impression that the middle east is not the safest place in the world for an American civilain to be right now.


I went in the late 90s. Like an idiot I visited Hebron. Got rocks thrown at our car outside Jerusalem. In truth, I doubt there ever was or in the forseeable future, will be a time when it will be a region safe for any citizen, American or other.

Sometimes risk is worth it though.

Plus you get to float around in water that won't let you submerge no matter how hard you try.

Offline culero

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #31 on: April 15, 2004, 01:16:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
I'm not baiting you here, Culero, but I'm trying to understand the situation.

What happened to the people that lived in Israel before it was formed? These are the Palestinians, correct? I heavily disagree with their murderous attacks, but if someone set up shop on my front lawn and told me it was their home now, I'd be pretty pissed off too.

Now, I must be oversimplifying the situation but that sounds like the gist of it.

If my friend was infringing on someone else's property, I would advise him to back off. Would I support if he coninuted to do something I thought was wrong and Illegal? Probably not.

Now, I'm not taking sides here, but that's the crux of the problem, is'nt it? Who has the right to the land called Israel?


Answer: the people who live there and participate in the democratic society that exists there.

Clue: there was *no* state there before Israel established one.

Clue: last time I looked, roughly 20% of Israel's citizens were non-Jewish folks of Palestinian descent.

My conclusion: The Israelis aren't seeking to persecute or exclude anyone. They're willing to accept the Palestinians as neighbors and citizens. They're just not disposed to take any **** from people whose avowed purpose is to wipe them out.

FWIW, I'm all for the idea that the Palestinians have a right to their homeland just as much as the Israelis. I agree we should focus on doing everything we can to cause the Israelis to deal with them fairly.

I just have little sympathy for their cause so long as their organizational entities disavow Israel's right to exist and support terror as a tactic. They need to back down a notch, accept the Israelis as neighbors, and learn to live with them.

culero
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Offline Capt. Pork

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #32 on: April 15, 2004, 01:17:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Did'nt they do that already?

Anyone got a source of where I can read up about this situation on the web? Preferably, and unbiased source?


I meant a land parcel that satisfies current Palestinian requirments(not including their desire to wipe the Earth clean of the Jews).

Unbaised information will be hard to come by.

Offline culero

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #33 on: April 15, 2004, 01:24:53 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Did'nt they do that already?

Anyone got a source of where I can read up about this situation on the web? Preferably, and unbiased source?


Its a pretty twisted and complicated situation, not given to simple answers. You ain't gonna get the gist from "A" source.

Here's another snippet: the "West Bank", "Golan Heights"  and "Gaza" were areas that belonged to Jordan Syria and Egypt before those countries joined together and attacked Israel, with the stated purpose to either kill every Israeli or drive them into the sea.

Now, if all the surrounding neighbors did that to YOUR homeland, would you feel you were illegally occupying their land if you took some buffer zone from their dogasses to help prevent future attacks?

culero (I'm tolding you, it ain't simple)
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Offline ravells

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #34 on: April 15, 2004, 01:37:18 PM »
Just a load of disconnected thoughts:

A friend of mine told me (he's an American jew) that the strongest Jewish lobby in the US (there's an acronym for it, but I forget what it is) is composed of Jewish women.  He told me this lobby group is incredibly powerful.

A while back I met up with another American friend of mine who is well connected and used to work in the state department. He told me that for the first time, The fundamental Christians in the US and the Jews are batting on the same side, due to this 'second coming' event that muck was talking about earlier. If the Jews are not in Israel when that happens, then that will blow the prophesy.  Sharon personally welcomed a load of fundamental Christians from the US a couple of years ago...the event was televised.

As I see it, Israel is much more than 'an ally' to the US, to many of Jewish people who live there, it is another US state.  As I understand it, without dollar support, the Sheckel would have collapsed a long time ago. Come to think of it, as an ally what DID Israel do for the US during gulf war 1 or gulf war 2?

The Israelis and Palestinians have been brutalising each other since partition, and there is every indication that this is going to continue. I expect that when Bush tore up the 'Road Map', the Arabs just chuckled and said 'like we believed you were going to honour it anyway' (if you remember the road map was a concession made by the US to get world support for the invasion of Iraq).  It seems to me that the Bush administration has given up trying to act as a peacemaker in that part of the world and has now pinned its colours to the mast.

Again, something else which my Jewish American friend told me was that most Jewish Americans see themselves as Jews first and Americans second, in strong contrast to the other minorities who have settled in the US over a period of generations.

Ravs.

Offline muckmaw

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #35 on: April 15, 2004, 01:46:55 PM »
Interesting tid bit..

Is it true that the nation of Israel is only 15% of the original area known as Palestine!

I had no idea, but according to my reading, the bulk of what was Palestine became Trans Jordan, later Jordan.

If this is correct, the Arabs already have 85% of Palestine under their control.

Of course, this came a from a very biased websight, so I am asking for confirmation.

Very intersting history Israel has..

Offline airbumba

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #36 on: April 15, 2004, 01:52:08 PM »
The US gives Isreal 4 billion a year, they only have 17 million folks,per person thats more than any tax refund in the US.

Isreal is one of the worlds 5 top arms dealers, one of their best clients...China.

Never will understnd world politics.
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Offline Yeager

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2004, 01:57:39 PM »
Whatever happened to all the Jews in Europe?
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Offline culero

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2004, 01:58:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
Interesting tid bit..

Is it true that the nation of Israel is only 15% of the original area known as Palestine!

I had no idea, but according to my reading, the bulk of what was Palestine became Trans Jordan, later Jordan.

If this is correct, the Arabs already have 85% of Palestine under their control.

Of course, this came a from a very biased websight, so I am asking for confirmation.

Very intersting history Israel has..



No kidding :)

culero (keep digging, bro!)
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Offline Eagler

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2004, 01:59:48 PM »
because if we didn't, the Israelis would wipe Palestine off the map the next time a nightclub/bus was bombed by a nutbag .. and they wouldn't stop there

on second thought, why do we support them? :)
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Offline Tarmac

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2004, 02:19:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ravells
Come to think of it, as an ally what DID Israel do for the US during gulf war 1 or gulf war 2?


In Gulf War 1, we asked them to stay out.  Remember all the tension as Saddam launched SCUDS into Tel Aviv, and the Israelis had the strength not to retaliate?  If they had, our coalition (specifically the Arab members) would have fallen apart.  We needed those bases in Saudi Arabia and other nearby Muslim countries.  

The Israelis did their part in the first Gulf War.  They sat there and took it because they were asked to, and because they realized that it was important for the overall cause.  I can imagine no better ally than one who will have its nose bloodied repeatedly and simply turn the other cheek for the sake of its allies.  

I'd bet they were asked to sit out Gulf War 2 for the same reasons.

Offline Hortlund

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Re: Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2004, 02:26:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw

Why do we do it?


Because they are the good guys, and they would not survive without the US support.

Tell me who your enemies are, and I'll tell you something about you...
Well, the enemies of Israel are the suicide bombers and Pearl-murderers, the airline hijackers and the fundamental moslems, its the Saddam/Khomeini/Ghadaffi-type dictators, the 9-11 terrorists...you get the picture.

Offline lasersailor184

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2004, 02:49:45 PM »
So muck, you're saying that we have to have a political or financial motive for supporting a Jewish homeland?
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Offline Rude

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2004, 02:55:30 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by muckmaw
There's another angle I forgot to mention that we should consider.

I do not remember where I read this but found it compelling at the time.

There is another group in the US, even larger and more influential who is just as interested in keeping an Israeli state...

The Religious Right....the real hardcore Christian Fundamentalists.

Here's why. Accoding to the article I read, the Christian Funds. Believe that the sescond coming of Christ cannot happen until Armegeddon which is supposed to start in Israel.

Apparently, they believe if there is no Israel, there can be no Armegeddon and therefore, no second coming.


You're close.

The Jews are God's chosen people....any who stand against her will perish....to believe our government takes no scriptual consideration for the support of Isreal is to kid yourself.

Offline muckmaw

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Why are we supporting Israel?
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2004, 02:56:20 PM »
Thats what I'm trying to understand.

I don't know what the political or financial advantages are, if any.

The more I read, the more I  believe supporting Israel is the right thing to do, though.