Revert back to old ditance #s

[Sled]

Well I guess we answered the question of whether or not this is a pointless discussion.

Dale, Thanks for jumping in and giving us some good things to think about. I agree about one thing you said, often the things that we look for to make the game more realistic are only making the game harder. I think without a significant increase in technology (and also a great increase in cost) this game is about as "realistic" as it can get. Therefore the things that are looked for to increase realism are only increasing the learning curve. This game could easily be made so that only those with a significant amount of flight sim experience, would be able to play it.

That being said, I still think that we need distance in numbers, at longer ranges, over 1k or so. The use of variations in shades of color is ok, but much harder to interpret. "Hmmm is that light, light red, or is that light, light, light red?"  I like the idea of the plus and minus to the range icons. It is something that would be quickly understood, and very easy to interpret.

You could also do range in RED when they are closing on you, and range in BLACK when they retreating from you. or something like that. I don't like having to "read" icons, it is nice, if just seeing them there in your field of vision relays enough information to tell you what is going on. If shades of color were to be use, I think you need two separate colors, one for closing and one for receding.

I don't envy Dale and his crew. They have to come up with a game that not only challenges the experienced, but is easy enough the new guy wants to stick with it.

Good luck to you guys, I hope we are helping you with all these ideas.

[Batz]

Get rid of numbers, they are the number 1 cause of spray and pray.

You dont need to know anything less then 200 yrds increments. You have gunsite and these should be used to range in at convergence. Once inside a certain range you "close for the kill" rather then turning on the "hose" with spray and pray.

Heres another image. Like wwiol uses the "half moon" how about a bar that shrinks as you close along with a fade in icon.

[Sled]

"Get rid of numbers, they are the number 1 cause of spray and pray. "


I agree, you don't need numbers inside of 1-1.5K, BUT, you do need them at long ranges, >2K.

There is a BIG difference between how you react to a Bandit that is 5.5K out, and one that is 3.5k out. But it is almost imposable to tell the difference between the dots, just on size alone.

[Batz]

Inside 6k they aren't dots, they are rendered.  All events have icons set to 3k and have for years. That means no icons at all beyond 3k, there no issues at all. You can easily tell the difference between a bandit at 5k and one at 3k. IIRC correctly the CT uses 3k enemy icons.

Maybe you should try an event. Kurland-Kessel is set to run in about 2 weeks with reduced icons. There will be room for walkons or you can register and see for yourself how the "dots" / "icons" are. Follow the kurland link in my sig.

Anyway with the bar in the above .gif it shortens every 1k or so added with a fade (color depth) it gives you closure. Once the bar is 1/2 its size and the color is no longer translucent you will know the bad guy is 3k.

[Swoop]

Originally posted by Batz
All events have icons set to 3k and have for years.  

Not all.  

[bozon]

I like Batz shortening bar idea.

following HT:

1. Do you wish range info. If so how detailed - some range info is a must over 3k everything is a dot. No need for exact info, just an estimation

2. Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info - over 2k I'm having difficulties telling whether a plane is comming toward me or away from me (1024x728) without the zoom. Also, the closure is hard to estimate when over 1k away. the planes simply look too small and pixeled over that range. This is a screen limitation that doesn't exist in RL.

3. think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing? - having an estimation of range will reduce long range spraying. Now you see the tracers flying exacly when you hit 1000 yards line.

of all that was suggested, I like Batz's range bar, though I'm not sure how many steps you can have in it.
Make icons appear only under 3k - this reduces people diving 20k down to get someone on the deck (they'll have no ID on him) and reduces the gangbanging of perked planes.
The range bar gives enough range information (estimation - full bar 3k, half bar 1.5k), it's intuitive and gives closure information with the rate of shrinking.

If this can be implemented and how well, I don't know.

Bozon

[senna]

Originally posted by bozon
1. Do you wish range info. If so how detailed - some range info is a must over 3k everything is a dot. No need for exact info, just an estimation

Actually in real life, estimating the range of an distant object is very difficult. Its easier when the object is closer.

2. Is there enof closure rate info giveng with the range info, if not do we wish to give closure rate info - over 2k I'm having difficulties telling whether a plane is comming toward me or away from me (1024x728) without the zoom. Also, the closure is hard to estimate when over 1k away. the planes simply look too small and pixeled over that range. This is a screen limitation that doesn't exist in RL.

This is why aerial gunnery was so difficult in real life. HTC should improve the graphics area of target closure to help aid in range estimation. In real life the gunsite itself was used to estimate the targets range. Has anyone noticed the average pilots hit % for gunnery. Its ridicules and does not reflect real world gunnery skills. Thats why AH can sometimes be very "star wars" like even though its a very realistic combat sim/game.

3. think about how it will effect game play. Will it change fighting style, if it does is the way it effects it a good thing? - having an estimation of range will reduce long range spraying. Now you see the tracers flying exacly when you hit 1000 yards line.

AH players spend so much time getting used to playing AH that they become experts at AH. If you change one thing about the icon, alot of people will get upset. However what I would like to see is a dot that appears when an object is within 1000 yards then change in color when its at 500 yards. Thats all the range info I would like to see implimented in AH. I dont even think red green icons should be displayed until well within visual range. One major factor in real life is confusion and havoc which is not modeled in AH due to all the helper icons/radar etc... that make the experienced players into luke skywalkers. More realism = better.

[Sled]

Batz, thanks for the "Heads up" on the walk-ons. But I've been participating in Friday night Squad ops (used to be TOD) for almost a year now, we just finished the Finland ops. this last week. I see you are talking about Saturday night Ops. But I doubt there is much differance between the two.

Your right about "the dots" (I was using a slang term) They are fully rendered, and if you want to zoom in and narrow your field of view to just a couple of degs. you can sometimes get a good picture of what that plane at 4K is doing. Of course this assumes that the bandit is in the center of the screen, if not then you will have to maneuver your plane to get him where you can see him, zoomed in. This may or may not be possible or wise.

As far as "all events" having icon at 3K, swoop is right not all. however in squad ops they are set to 3K, and you are right it is not a problem. As I'm sure you well know, the MA is not Squad ops. they are two entirely different games. I won't go into all the differences now. But suffice it to say, in squad ops. you only have two sides, and you don't have LARGE fur balls that can last for an hour or more, with enemies streaming in from all sides along with the friendlys that are trying to intercept them. It is a completely different game, than the main arena, you can't even compare the two. You should know this, If you didn't, You are welcome to take one of our spare spots this next Friday on the 30th. So you can see the differences between the MA and the SE.

[Sled]

"One major factor in real life is confusion and havoc which is not modeled in AH due to all the helper icons/radar etc... "

I can't argue with that statement, but in WWII, your wing man and your target weren't flying the same plane! If you saw a 109, you shot it down, period. not so here. That 109 might be your CO. who's chasing another 109, that is getting help from his wing..... in a 109!

A couple of turns later..... "hmmm which one was my CO?" I believe in good SA, but not many are going to last long in that situation.

[Stratocaster]

I like the bar idea........ HTC you should try it for a beta!

[Batz]

Lol

 I think you must not know I have been AH for 4 years, I flew in the first ToD as matter of fact Co'd the first 2 and many many more.

Swoop is talking about Cap. I wont say much about cap but before my squad stopped flying due to differences in how it was headed 3./JG2 was one of the largest, if not the largest squads, in it with kill scores equally as large.  I can’t recall the original settings but I thought they started with 3k icons.

I have been a part of every AH event and Co'd far more then I can count. I wrote the Kurland event. I founded 3 squads. Our squad ranks were almost always in top 5 in the main. In addition I was a CT CM. So I am not a noob.

You talk of large furballs in the main, they get equally large in scenarios (large multi-frame events; like Kurland, Big week, Niemen, BoB etc...) Many had huge fights with reduced icons again no issues at all. The end of frame 4 in Niemen was huge.

With 3k icons you don't need to zoom in to see what’s what.  You maybe over exaggerating your point, which isn’t necessary. If you want range counters its enough to just say so. I will stop short of saying "you just don’t what you are talking about" but if you are using zoom for anything then its no wonder your gunnery is at 5%

As I said I like the AH2 icons as is but if HT is contemplating making another adjustment then I would suggest (along with many others) get rid of range counters all together. But as I asked above this topic most likely is an excersize in futility.

YMMV

[Batz]

One thing about the range bar is you don’t need to have the color fade in, but I am partial to it.

You could also have an outline / border around the bar that stays full size so that you can judge how much the bar has moved.



So the outline would be max range and the bar size relative to the border would help you better gauge range.

[irvinbrubacher]

i love the idea of color fade but also like the idea of the box around the bar if those two could be combined i think it would be great

[RSLQK186]

If a new icon system means less info being transmitted(dont know) and reducing problems such as 2 sec screen lock just when I,m about to knock off some tailfethers than I'm for it and anything else that would help my 52K(live in the woods) hang in a 500+ arena.  I admit I'm not the player most of you who replied to this post are but for me its not a quistion of skill but being able to play at all. If your better than me, you'll still get me but I wonder how many "great shot"s are just blind fish in a barrel. BTW Batz- bars the best one yet.

[Sled]

Batz, Thanks for the career stats. So is that a no for the walk on spot?

You and I both know that they are not going to get rid of range icons, nore should they. They may change them some, or change the settings on them, but they will be there.

Batz said: "you just don’t (know) what you are talking about"
LOL  If you didn't think I knew what I was talking about we wouldn't be having this discussion.

We both know what we are talking about, we just disagree, And the last time I checked it is ok to disagree. Although maybe it is different outside of the USA.

I like your sliding bar for ranges below 1.5K.