Straffo (EU, terrorists, business) :-)

[bikekil]

As i should mention in me post in the other thread, it's nothing personal against ANY nation as a people who living there. As in every country, here and there are idionts and the good guys. Also there is nothing wrong with individual judgements whatever they are.
When i say "Spain - country of cowards" i mean that latest political actions of Spain are cowardly, but i don't want to say (as i don't see things that way) the whole population of the country are cowards. This applies to France and Germany also I'm sorry if you got me the other way and i appologise for that.

Now,
Terrorosts - the deal is simple. There is no room for being "soft" in this case. If we agree that we can't allow them to operate (wordwide... aka in any country) the only question will be, how to acheve this. In other words - if you (as myself) think that terrorists should be elminated, the only difference that can be possible should be the way we go.
I hope you are with me here = you want to elminate terrorists (yes. i do realise that as a person i can't do nothing about them.)
So if you are with me till now, next question is, how to elminate them. I say they should be prisoned or killed if impossible to catch them alive. They have no respect to the right to live, i have no respoect for them following this - i see it hard to catch or kill them without sending troops or any other "forces". I know, that Spanish guys were there to protect not to hunt, but then, i doubt they did a right thing while decided about running away.
It's impossible for me to accept, that after what happened in Madrit, they decided to hide (aka move the troops out). Of course that's theyr right, but i have my right to call them cowards.

Same applies to every country that decides to screw the allies and deal with the terrorists that way. That's also brown nosing to the terrorists or whatever you like to call it.

You are right - terrorists hadn't striked Poland (yet... and i hope they never will). But believe me, if after something like this we would decide to send our guys home, i would call Poland the same way i'm talking about Spain now.

Now we could discuss how cowardly was France or Germany when decided to keep theyr guys home and hadn't helped in Iraq.
I see it as a pure business. France and Germany wanted had theis business in doing that way. If the business would be better for them if they join - they would Nothing strange in it - that's they way it is for every country.
Anyway, maybe i could risk saying that IF France and Grmany would join the party when the party started, people in Iraq would benefit now and would have better lifes then they have now... but because of the business of some countries we have the current situation.
Also if US decided to keep their guys home we would be at some other (maybe better situation).
The question is - how the world should react after what heppened in WTC?
I say world should stop trash talking and start ACTING. that is what US did (detailes shoudl be planned better tho. especially in terms of support for civilians).


EU - the deal is simple, EU means business. It's a business for politicians, for some business groups and for some people... but no matter how nice the whole idea is - it's a business
If the EU countries wants Poland in, that means it's a good business for them. Do you agree? I hope you are...
If the Poland wants to be in - it's a good business for Poland.

That's not that simple, because for some people here and in EU, Poland joining EU is a risky thing also.... for some people it means that some $ from their taxes will go here. For some other guys means they will earn more = pay more taxes and also = they will hire more folks = more folks will have a job = more folks are happy... and so on.

So, to answer your question from the other thread - i have no idea who wanted Poland in EU, but believe me, it wasn't me
You should better ask your goverment why they wants Poland in EU and it's your right to know the answer.
Here we are asking - why EU wants us in and why we should join EU.... but i can't give you an answer... while being sure it's a good buniness for some folks here and there.

I hope you got what i meant now

[Nilsen]

I hope Norway stays out of EU too....i think.....somthing is terribly wrong when they are so keen to get us in

[straffo]

Well it look like we have the same disagreement I have with some other here.

It's just that I don't think we should be soft with terrorism,it should IMO be dealed with a maximum of care to avoid helping their recruitement.
I thing that a military "agitation" is a waste of ressources.

If you send troop you send also easy target (like Iraq tends to prove) and in the same time helping recruitement.

The Spanish population s/howed last year her will ,the spanish governement proceeded without caring of their opinion and in the same time they showed an incredible incompetance in protecting their own citizen from an horrible tragedie.

If you remember the truce proposed by Osame last week you should remeber also how the EU nations as whole rejected this truce.

I hope like you that Poland will never see such a catastrophe,as you know I'm very sentimental concerning my Polish root (even if I was pretty agressive in my post in the other thread , btw I apologise for my outburst.)


I disagree also with your interpretation about a business reason for the non intervention in Iraq,there is currently German and French troops in Afghanistan,our intel and police is still working on terrorism.
I do think that the US administration wasted stupidly all the capitalized sympathie they got after 9/11.
Again I don't think dealing with terrorism is killing terrorist (even if it's part of the job) the real problem is killing the source[/] of terrorism.
Where is the point in building a dam if you can't stop the source ?



About EU now.

EU is certainly business , the political and nation come after.
It's in the root of the EU lookup Shumann, Monnet, Adenauer,de Gasperry (CECA/EGKS/ECES)

Business mean also richness and as I said in the other thread look at Portugal ,Greece or Spain the outcome was not bad for them.

It will be hard ,very hard for Poland to enter EU but Poland has already made more than half the way I know the polish are hard worker (at least my grand father was ) we will know the answer in 10 years.

In 10 year this discussion will be seen as prophetic or I'll appear  dreamin ... who knows.

I know it's hard for a Pole whose nation has been often martyrized by the surrounding country and whose nation has been negated so much.
But I don't think it's the way EU should be seen,surerely there is inconvenients in EU ,surerely there is some absurdity in EU.

But by increasing the dependancy of the nation between each other ,by creating more an more link between citizen I hope it will create a better future for my childs and the next generations.

[Monk]

Originally posted by Nilsen
I hope Norway stays out of EU too....i think.....somthing is terribly wrong when they are so keen to get us in

They need mo Money.  The 2 power houses are not cutting it anymore.

[Nilsen]

I just can't see what EU can give us that we don't already have. Norway is split about 50/50 on the EU business so there has to be something the other 50% understand that i don't.....or maybe they are just retarded.

[dweebespit]

Unfrotunately Straffo, the only successfull methodology for fighting terrorism has been shown in years previous: a combination of intelligence and violence against the terrorists.  

IE - the Brits dealing with the IRA, even some of the French actions in Algiers, yada yada, don't forget Carlos either.

The models are similiar as far as the organizations and the fact that the fueding parties are significantly far away from each other.  This is not intended to bring down some rediculous statement about Israel/Palestine.  That situation is entirely different socially and politically........

When you say 'stop the cause of terrorism', I would either have to guess that for one reason or another you're speaking in extremely vague terms.  What exactly is the 'cause' of terrorism in this case?  How exactly do we stop it?

[Monk]

Stay out.  most Germans I talk with are not impressed with the EU.

But then again, they did get it shoved down their throat.  No voting here.

[Nilsen]

didn't Germans get to vote Monk?
I know polls shows that most Danes wants out and the Italians I know want's to get out too....mainly because of the euro.

Hopefully there will be along time before we get to vote again, bucause i think the yes crowd has a very small lead.

[bikekil]

Now we are talking

Originally posted by straffo
Well it look like we have the same disagreement I have with some other here.

It's just that I don't think we should be soft with terrorism,it should IMO be dealed with a maximum of care to avoid helping their recruitement.
I thing that a military "agitation" is a waste of ressources.

don't you think that moving the troops out will result in helping their recruitement? It is a cledar sign that their attacks resulting as they want them to result

If you send troop you send also easy target (like Iraq tends to prove) and in the same time helping recruitement.

sending the troops there is risky, but how you want to prevent them form a civil war? Troops should be there to protect civilians from the bandints mafias or whatever they have overe there. They shoudl keep the peace on the streets and make normal citizens feel secured. Finally some small % of the troops usege should be hunding the extrahunkz of any kind (aka terrorists). When you are sending the toppos in and later moving them out with the way some are willing to do it - you are showing them how WEAK you really are.... believe me, they won't notice you are smart....

The Spanish population s/howed last year her will ,the spanish governement proceeded without caring of their opinion and in the same time they showed an incredible incompetance in protecting their own citizen from an horrible tragedie.

Incompetence of the goverment is another thing. Imo it's not that important here. Goverment should pay for the mistakes, but fighting wiht terrorists is another case

If you remember the truce proposed by Osame last week you should remeber also how the EU nations as whole rejected this truce.

Nice, but at the same time Spain informed that they are moving out... other countries are considering it more or less officiall and some other are not present in Iraq...

...
...

I disagree also with your interpretation about a business reason for the non intervention in Iraq,there is currently German and French troops in Afghanistan,our intel and police is still working on terrorism.
I do think that the US administration wasted stupidly all the capitalized sympathie they got after 9/11.
Again I don't think dealing with terrorism is killing terrorist (even if it's part of the job) the real problem is killing the source[/] of terrorism.
Where is the point in building a dam if you can't stop the source ?

I'm not economist and i can't prove you are wrong... so it's "me thinks" against "me thinks" here... i think



About EU now.
....

It will be hard for Poland to join and it will be hard for EU to have us... i think it's because of the different opinions Poland or Frmance or Germany have.
If Chirac saying that "Poland missed it's chance to shuddup" (more or less that's what he said when we supported US) i don't expect our presence in EU to be painless for EU and us. I also hope that we will keep opinions and won't get scared by the bigger countries

But by increasing the dependancy of the nation between each other ,by creating more an more link between citizen I hope it will create a better future for my childs and the next generations.

That is what could be great about EU... maybe someday we start thinking about ourselves as a people form europe not from Poland or France. If we mix our people with a time, it will happened

[Seeker]

Some good stuff, Bikekill; but I'll make two counter-points:

1) England and Denmark (the only two places I feel qualified to talk about) were quite simply lied into war. Indeed; Fough is on record is saying "Saddam has WOMD. It's not something we think; it's something we know"; and in England we were told those weapons were at 45 minutes readiness.

Now; I applaud the downfall of Saddam; but democratic governments lieing thier people into war absolutly appalls me; full stop. I equate it with the famous falsehoods preceeding Poland's invasion; and such; find it unforgiveable.

2) When it comes to the "war on terrorism"; I don't believe England owes America a dime. Yanks have held fund raisers for the IRA for decades; America has sponsored and feted terrorists who not only blew the limbs off British school children; but even targeted Americans (the Harrods bombing). America has deliberatly funded "regime de-stabilisation" in every continent; and now, suddenly, it's a "war on terror".....

IF the American position that the only cure to "the Irish problem" is dialog; not arms (and to be fair; I've a sneaking suspicion they may be right); then why is there no dialog with Al quida? I realise that that's an enormously provocative statement to Americans; but it's no more provacative then seeing an American President shake Gerry Adams hand.

Strange to think that wo years ago Americans, French, Germans and even Russians were fighting side by side (in Afghanistan); and how quickly Bush blew that alliance apart.

[straffo]

on at time

Originally posted by dweebespit
Unfrotunately Straffo, the only successfull methodology for fighting terrorism has been shown in years previous: a combination of intelligence and violence against the terrorists.  

IE - the Brits dealing with the IRA, even some of the French actions in Algiers, yada yada, don't forget Carlos either.

I agree with that's what I've in mind actually.

The models are similiar as far as the organizations and the fact that the fueding parties are significantly far away from each other.  This is not intended to bring down some rediculous statement about Israel/Palestine.  That situation is entirely different socially and politically........

When you say 'stop the cause of terrorism', I would either have to guess that for one reason or another you're speaking in extremely vague terms.  What exactly is the 'cause' of terrorism in this case?  How exactly do we stop it?

I've been vague because there is more than several causes of terrorism and more than one terrorism.
You cited the IRA theit motive is diffenrent of Al Queida like the Rote Armee Fraktion had different objectives .
There is not one method to stop several sources of terrorism each one is specific.

It look like it's Hamas who operate actually in Isreal previously it was the PLO is the source identic and their objectives similar ? I don't know.

[straffo]

Originally posted by bikekil
Now we are talking

damm cannot have several quote level on this BBS ....

cut'n paste mode activated

don't you think that moving the troops out will result in helping their recruitement? It is a cledar sign that their attacks resulting as they want them to result

Dunno , but actually staying create more Iraqui "freedom fighter" people who would perhaps never been involved in terrorism.
Actually it create a mix between terrorist and resistants (I call them resistant because it's how they see themselves ,are they ... are they not is not the question)

ending the troops there is risky, but how you want to prevent them form a civil war? Troops should be there to protect civilians from the bandints mafias or whatever they have overe there. They shoudl keep the peace on the streets and make normal citizens feel secured. Finally some small % of the troops usege should be hunding the extrahunkz of any kind (aka terrorists). When you are sending the toppos in and later moving them out with the way some are willing to do it - you are showing them how WEAK you really are.... believe me, they won't notice you are smart....

That's a a double sided sword...
Effectively troops can prevent looting etc ...
But there presence can also create frustration among the Iraqui (you know this particuliar feeling you have when in you're own country the order is made by foreign troops ...)

Incompetence of the goverment is another thing. Imo it's not that important here. Goverment should pay for the mistakes, but fighting wiht terrorists is another case

I don't think they will stop, they don't have stopped fighting ETA and they keep reinforcing the south against African immigrant.
Why do you think they will stop protecting their citizen ?

Nice, but at the same time Spain informed that they are moving out... other countries are considering it more or less officiall and some other are not present in Iraq...  

Well all is in the interpretation of the move

I'm not economist and i can't prove you are wrong... so it's "me thinks" against "me thinks" here... i think

//french arrogance mode on
Don't you know I'm always right ?
//french arrogance mode off

t will be hard for Poland to join and it will be hard for EU to have us... i think it's because of the different opinions Poland or Frmance or Germany have.
If Chirac saying that "Poland missed it's chance to shuddup" (more or less that's what he said when we supported US) i don't expect our presence in EU to be painless for EU and us. I also hope that we will keep opinions and won't get scared by the bigger countries

Sure it will hard but the current state of affair will evolve and by sharing people and richness we will have a better future ( I'm an incurable optimist )

That is what could be great about EU... maybe someday we start thinking about ourselves as a people form europe not from Poland or France. If we mix our people with a time, it will happened

Well I'm already a partially European having French Polish Dutch Hungarish  blood

I hope my child will live in a federation were all voices will be heard and with prosperity.

[_Schadenfreude_]

Last years terrorist is this years business partner...welcome to realpolitik.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3644697.stm

[dweebespit]

I've been vague because there is more than several causes of terrorism and more than one terrorism.

So we should busy ourselves trying to stop the cause that we can't identify?  That's awesome.  I for one, will settle for blowing the **** out of them.  

Dunno , but actually staying create more Iraqui "freedom fighter" people who would perhaps never been involved in terrorism.

I think any question about the nature of these folks, is strictly a matter of lack of understanding of them and their intentions.  When you look very closely at what's going on here, you'll notice that they are fighting a threat that doesn't exist.

What exactly are they resisting?  Last time I checked we're over there trying to get a functional government up there and rebuild the heavily damaged infrastructure.  Any attempt to thwardt us over there is essentially making that goal more difficult.  


So I guess, if by 'resistance' you mean 'resisting progress and getting out of being a 3rd world country' then by all means continue.  Otherwise, i'd suggest that the term 'terrorist' will do just fine.

[straffo]

Originally posted by dweebespit
So we should busy ourselves trying to stop the cause that we can't identify?  That's awesome.  I for one, will settle for blowing the **** out of them.  

War on terror worked great in Spain.
Look like you either didn't blow enought Iraqui or didn't blow enought Iraqui... (aren't the suspect from Morroco btw ?)

 

I think any question about the nature of these folks, is strictly a matter of lack of understanding of them and their intentions.  When you look very closely at what's going on here, you'll notice that they are fighting a threat that doesn't exist.

What exactly are they resisting?  Last time I checked we're over there trying to get a functional government up there and rebuild the heavily damaged infrastructure.  Any attempt to thwardt us over there is essentially making that goal more difficult.  


So I guess, if by 'resistance' you mean 'resisting progress and getting out of being a 3rd world country' then by all means continue.  Otherwise, i'd suggest that the term 'terrorist' will do just fine.  

It's strickly a question of perspective when under Nazi rule during last war resistant were called terrorists ...

It's pretty presumptuous to think that your value are universal and should be the norm.
Perhaps the Iraqui would prefer a muslim dictature or see Saddam back ? (I know it sound stupid)

You say : we rebuild.
They think : you destroyed.
Untill their mind change they will be resistants and you will call them terrorist ,but keep in mind it's more grey than black and white.