Author Topic: Flight Model  (Read 3303 times)

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8605
Flight Model
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2000, 10:59:00 AM »
>Brit Typhoons smashing against fields'
>right side hangars because they couldnt
>overcome the yawing to the right even with
>full rudder deflection. Both well
>documented and well known.

Anecdotes are irrelevant.

HTC enjoys the presumption of correctness until you are able to PROVE otherwise.  Proof requires numerical evidence.  

Go look up some of Wells' old post to see what a well reasoned, informed discussion looks like.

If you can show a discrepency between published numerical performance data and the performance in game then post your data for the community to review and duplicate your tests.  If you can PROVE a discrepency with NUMBERS I have no doubt HTC will be all over it like white on rice.

Until you got numbers its just your personal opinion, and like amazinhunks, "everybody got one..." and most stink.


Regards,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Daff

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
Flight Model
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
"HTC enjoys the presumption of correctness until you are able to PROVE otherwise. Proof requires numerical evidence. "

That's all very well, but the numbers dont always output the correct result  ...and I do think it's the case with torque.
The Beagle Pup I fly need more rudder input on take-off than most of the AH planes..and that's a 150hp tricycle plane  

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Offline lasse

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 283
      • Lassenet
Flight Model
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2000, 11:09:00 AM »
I read the posts from CRASH and HiTech only in this post.


After reading HTs posts I am feeling sure that they are still trying to get the most accurate FM existing in their games/sim.

I have been worried sometimes, afraid that HTC should dumbdown the FM, now I am feeling assure that that wont happen.

After all, I want a sim of WWII planes,NOT a game of WWII planes, THAT'S why I still flies Aces High    


PS. Sorry if my english is not to good, but after all I am from Norway, and I am also getting a bit drunk right now, preparing myself for a night on the town(Its Friday night).

------------------
   
The Wild Vikings
Commanding Officer
lasse-


[This message has been edited by lasse (edited 12-29-2000).]
You smell that? Do you smell that?
Napalm, son. Nothing else in the world smells like that.
I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
The smell, you know that gasoline smell, smelled like victory.

Offline Finn

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Flight Model
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2000, 11:53:00 AM »
I just picked up AH again with the new release.
Frankly I don't think there's all that much wrong with the flight models. The general model 'feels' pretty good. Airplanes like the spit seem to glide a bit better than I'd expect. I found landing the spit 9 was like landing a glider without using spoilers. It wanted to float for a LONG time.  
But, overall, I'm pretty impressed.
There may be some specific areas on individual planes that aren't perfect, but these things take time to get sorted out.
I'd like to see some performance specs on the help page for the Spit 9.
It seems to shed wings a bit easily and the ailerons lock up more quickly than I think they should in a later model  spit.
But, overall, it seems like a very GOOD work in progress.
That's what some folks may be forgetting. I saw one post here in which the writer expressed dismay at 'paying to beta test'. I've heard this complaint in all the online sims I've ever played!
AH is never going to be finished. And that's a GOOD thing, as Martha would say. We need to remember that players aren't paying to beta test, they're paying to get a continually refined and reinvented product.  
Works for me.

finn

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8605
Flight Model
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2000, 01:38:00 PM »
Daff,


>The Beagle Pup I fly need more rudder input
>on take-off than most of the AH planes..and
>that's a 150hp tricycle plane

Fair enough.  But lets talk about that for a moment.

Lets say for argument that 50% left rudder in your pup results in 6 deg rudder deflection (totally made up numbers here).

Are you positive that 50% left rudder on your PC peddles result in 6 deg deflection as well?  

Could it be due to input scale that 50% left rudder on your PC results in 10 deg deflection?  Or 3 deg?  Would that make it seem as if less rudder is needed in AH than in real life?  Or more?

Could you scale your rudder peddles in such a way as to get that back in sync with your real life experience?

Could having your rudder peddles scaled in such a way give the impression that the FM is not accurate?  Could it make it seem too easy to control a tiffy on take-off because 10% rudder on your home peddles generate the same rudder deflection as 100% on the peddles in the real plane?

HTC has no idea how your going to scale your rudder peddles.  They don’t know what your input curve is going to be.  You may be scaling with CTFJ completely outside their program.  

Their model for the effects of 6 deg rudder deflection on the velocity vector might be spot on in regards to real life, but the scale of your input device might make it easier or harder to achieve that deflection than in real life.  That could cause someone who has not given it sufficient thought to proclaim the FM as porked.

I’m not saying any of this is really the cause of your problem.  I’m just saying that all kinds of complexities like this have to be considered and eliminated before anyone can confidently brand the FM as incorrectly modeled.

 
Regards,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Daff

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
Flight Model
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2000, 02:03:00 PM »
Good points, Wab, but it's based on how much the planes veer off without any rudder input.
(Although I've never *not* used rudder in the Pup..I wouldnt be very popular if I did that  ).
It's also based on the amount of rudder you need, when changing throttle settings, climbing and descending.
While the Pup isnt as directionally stable as a Cessna, Piper, etc, it's still a very easy plane to fly and relativly little footwork is required...but rudder in both AH and WB seems to be there for aiming and not much else.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8605
Flight Model
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2000, 03:08:00 PM »
Daff,

I see your point.  However we are really talking apples and oranges between your pup and an F-4U or Tiffy.  Hell we’d even be talking apples and oranges between an F-4U and a Tiffy.  Or even between F-4Us of different fuel loads, prop configurations, etc….   They might have the same characteristics…maybe not.

Is the ratio of the mass of the aircraft in proportion to the thrust and torque the same between your pup and a Tiffy?  Is it more? Is it less?  

Does tricycle gear configurations generally require more rudder input or less than a tail dragger?

Does the wingspan and/or distance between the main wheelbase make a difference?

Does either plane have a more or less efficient prop design generating more or less airflow for slipstream effect?

Is the rudder surface area on both planes the same catching the same amount of the slipstream?


Are the masses of the propellers the same affecting the magnitude of the gyroscopic effect?

The CG of a tricycle aircraft would seem to me to be much more directly over the wheels than a tail dragger.  A tail dragger seems to have its CG farther behind the main wheels.  Would that have an effect on how easily it is affected by torque in yaw?

There are SOOOO many little details that can affect things like this that it drives me crazy when some of the yahoos around here make blanket FM proclamations based on the flimsiest wisp of evidence and the sloppiest efforts of reason.

I don’t include you in this.  You simply noted your different experience in an admittedly different aircraft type.  You didn’t try and use that as justification for summarily passing judgment on an FM created by guys who have been researching these issues for longer than some of the pilots around here have even been flying MM online sims.  Even worse those around here that aren’t even pilots themselves, who are willing to dismiss the FM based on something they read in some dime novel or Nazi propaganda or have heard on the grapevine.

I don’t know if HTC’s FM is accurate or not.  It could be right on the money.  It could be hopelessly hosed.  All I ask is that “some” people around here are a little more intellectually rigorous in their analysis before summarily dismissing the FM’s as hosed.  At least I know enough to know I don’t know enough.  


Regards,
Wab

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline 54Ed

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Flight Model
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2000, 03:37:00 PM »
Wabbit and Daff:

Taildragger airplanes generally have far larger rudders and vertical stabilizers than modern tricycle gear aircraft.  They therefore have much more rudder authority, and a small rudder input produces a larger response.  

You really can't compare rudder usage on the two types of aircraft.  The physics are just too different when they are on their wheels.  On takeoff roll in a tricycle gear plane, you are not really even using the rudder, you are using the nosegear to point the plane where you want it to go, until you rotate.  Takeoffs in tricycle gear birds usually require a fixed amount of rudder.

In a taildragger, you raise the tail as you roll, and use the rudder as your sole means of directional control.  But the CG of the plane constantly wants to swing to the side, so any little excursion of yaw requires a correction.  Watch any experienced taildragger pilot on takeoff or landing; they all "dance" on the rudder, with rapid, small left-right inputs to keep the plane straight.  

You also cannot make the logical assumption that more HP equals more yaw at a particular point in the flight envelope.  There are just too many design characteristics that we have no data on, like engine and rudder offset, etc.  The plane that I have flown that had the most adverse yaw and required the most frequent rudder input was a 65 HP Aeronca Champ.  On the other hand, the 200 HP Decathalon that I fly acro in requires little rudder input and is a very easy taildragger to keep directional control of.

Offline Daff

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
Flight Model
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2000, 04:12:00 PM »
Yeah, I got time in a Pitts and Tiger Moth (But both those planes are inherently directionally unstable, so I'm not going to use them for comparison)...but what I'm saying is that an utterly docile plane like the Pup needs less rudder than a true warbird doesnt make sense.
If that was the case, then the CAA would probably require rudder trim for the Pup and the insurance would be about 100 times higher.

Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

[This message has been edited by Daff (edited 12-29-2000).]

Offline 54Ed

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Flight Model
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2000, 10:40:00 PM »
ALL taildraggers are inherently directionally unstable when on the mains.  The Pitts just bites you quicker because it's so short-coupled.  

I don't disagree with your basic point that the Pup should be much easier to fly than the Corsair.  I do disagree that this constitutes irrefutable evidence that the AH flight model physics are stuffed.  For my money, AH has by far the most realistic flight model on the market today.  This is the ONLY sim I have found to get spin and spin recovery characteristics even remotely close, for example.  

Ice

  • Guest
Flight Model
« Reply #40 on: December 29, 2000, 11:10:00 PM »
*sigh*

Offline Daff

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 338
Flight Model
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2000, 12:57:00 AM »
"I do disagree that this constitutes irrefutable evidence that the AH flight model physics are stuffed."

I'm not saying it's irrefutable evidence  ..but add the anecdotal evidence off rudder need on take-offs and go-arounds, it does look like the critiscism about lacking torque is right.


"For my money, AH has by far the most realistic flight model on the market today. This is the ONLY sim I have found to get spin and spin recovery characteristics even remotely close, for example."

There I disagree..that title still goes to the original Flight Unlimited <G>.


Daff

------------------
CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"

Offline 54Ed

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Flight Model
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2000, 01:26:00 PM »
Ok, on the issue of torque, let's get past anecdotes and into controlled testing.  But first lets define torque:  it is the "equal and opposite reaction" which applies a rolling force on the aircraft opposite the rotation of the prop. Torque does not cause yaw.  The interaction of torque with other forces, and with pilot control inputs, may have the effect of causing the plane to yaw, but torque does not directly cause yaw.  It causes roll.  It should not be confused with slipstream, P-factor, Gyroscopic Precession, or Assymetric Drag, the other major forces acting on a high-performance aircraft at slow airspeeds.  

So get in offline mode, grab a corsair on the runway with power at idle, and turn off the autopilot.  Now apply full power and leave your hands off the controls.  What happens?

I'll tell you what happened to me every single time.  The plane veered off the runway to the left, until it reached a heading about 45 degrees off the runway centerline.  At that point, it either smacked into a hangar, or the airspeed reached 120 and the plane gradually stopped yawing and flew straight.

Was it torque that caused the plane to veer?  Nope.  It was slipstream mostly.  That also explains why it straightened out at 120 mph: the airflow over the rudder became strong enough to hold the aircraft straight.  The torque may have indirectly contributed to the veer, but not directly.  

Now take off in the corsair, get up to a few thousand feet, cut power, and slow it to stall speed.  When you hear the stall horn sounding, but just before the nose or a wing drops, apply sudden full power.  What happens?  

I'll tell you what happened to me: the plane rolled hard left, every time.  If I fought the roll with controls, the plane usually executed a half-roll and wound up inverted.  If not, it executed a full roll.  Once airspeed increased, the roll stopped.  

You just saw proof of torque modeled in AH.  It was also a standard training maneuver for new pilots in the P-51 and Corsair on their first flight (only they did it at a higher altitude).  It was done to teach them respect for high torque, so they wouldn't apply sudden full power at slow airspeeds and low altitude, like on a go-around or low pass.  An accidental half-roll at flare height would ruin your day.

So I don't see what the problem is with torque modeling.  From what I can tell, it's there, and it's done well.  

Excuse me if I sound condescending or explain stuff you already know well.  I assume you know about 90% of what I just said.  But there are lots of posters out there who don't understand aerodynamic forces, so my explanation is more for them.

Offline Jekyll

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 89
      • http://www.bigpond.net.au/phoenix
Flight Model
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2000, 04:17:00 PM »
 
Quote
I'll tell you what happened to me every single time.

Good point Ed.  It would have been a MUCH better point if you had tried the above with rudder trim centred though.

Then you'll find she tracks straight as a die and lifts off with no human input at all  

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8605
Flight Model
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2000, 04:54:00 PM »
Good point Jekyll.  But it would have been a MUCH better point if you had taken off "auto-takeoff".

I did.  Here is the film.
 http://www.digitalsim.com/AcesHigh/film5.zip

(best viewed external, zoomed out from above.)

Look mom, no hands (eating a burger).  Til I crashed into the hangar!

Torque might be off.  But if it is, its by a matter of degrees not magnitude.

Regards,
Wab
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.