Author Topic: N1K whine!  (Read 4553 times)

Offline Flyboy

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« Reply #105 on: May 05, 2004, 11:40:53 AM »
quote:
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Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
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...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.



do not rely on the "1 ping your ded" thing- 1 "ping" sound does not mean you were hit once. it could be 1 hit or 50 hits.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #106 on: May 05, 2004, 11:56:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Flyboy
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.



do not rely on the "1 ping your ded" thing- 1 "ping" sound does not mean you were hit once. it could be 1 hit or 50 hits.
If you're saying that Bulz was hit by possibly as many as 50 rounds, that fuels my belief that the gunnery is not as it should be in AH1, and that's because of dispersion designed into automatic weapons of the kind used on WW2 aircraft. It would simply not be possible to focus a concentrated stream of cannon rounds into one place at a distance of 800 yards.

Phantom4, if you're still here, you are an expert at military weapons, and I admit I'm stuggling to recall what I learned in those WB debates about gunnery and dispersion from 5 years ago. Can you tell us more about how that works? A former military acquaintance of mine explained how a belt fed machine gun was designed to spread its output over a sizeable area at a given range, and not put all the rounds discharged into the same hole. In other words, no laser gunnery.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #107 on: May 05, 2004, 12:10:04 PM »
beet, most of the destructive power a cannon round holds derives from its HE content. Kinetic energy is not much of an issue for cannon rounds even at longer distances. (Ofcourse, even cannons had mixed ammo belts of AP ammunition and HE ammunition, thus an AP round fired from a cannon would have lost some potential).

 However, from what I've seen people present as data, it seems that even HMGs like the M2 Browning holds much of its kinetic potential easily upto over 1000 yards - thus, fluke shots and lucky snags are very possible as people have previously mentioned.

 Ofcourse, I'm not sure if AH damage model deals in "bounced" rounds - as a matter of fact, I don't think anyone knows just how exactly AH deals damages.(I do recall Pyro saying kinetic difference according to speed is modelled in the game - a long long time ago, that is).

 Typically we hear three types of "pings" - a smaller 'bouncy' sound for MGs, a 'thunk!' sound for cannon hits, and a 'clunk!' sound indicating damage.

 So, when you are assaulted by a barrage of the 'bouncy' pings, or receive a 'thunk', does that mean the bullets are bouncing off? Or does it mean that you are hit and the shells did penetrate, but the damage was not enough for the game to deal out "damaged" status upon the hit part? No one really knows.
 
 ....
 
 But one thing is certain, is that if a fluke or a lucky shot hits your plane, and the game deals out the "damaged" card, the whole part will be utterly destroyed - which often results in catastrophic structural failure of flight surfaces, which immediately brings down the plane(typically when it's the vertical stab or the horizontal stab being damaged). Thus, the simplicity of this damage model is partly responsible for the "fluke shots", or even the mentality behind the people attempting that shot(since they know if they succeed in damaging a plane somehow, it will almost definately go down, or be seriously rendered incompetent to fight).  

 
 Basically, the problem of people attempting long range shots, succeeding in it regularly, and even mastering that particular aspect as a required skill, has a lot more to do than just gunnery alone - since, as said by others, in theory the ballistics suggests that such shots are very possible.

 The problem is that in real life, despite what the ballistics suggest, long range shots were both rarely attempted and rarely effective. This is due to a number of reasons, which exists in reality but does not reside in AH. People have come up with a compelling argument mentioning "pilot experience" as a factor, but while it may explain some of the difference in real life gunnery and in-the-game gunnery, there is more to it than just skill factor alone. The 'effective range' of aerial gunnery is different from the 'effective range' specifications following a gun design. If we accept Mr. Anthony Williams as a trusty expert in this, his opinion is that 200m(218yds) was generally the maximum range which kills could be expected against fighters, and upto 400m(437yds) max for larger targets like bombers. Anything further than that simply did not wield effective results. (600~1000 yards shots are indeed, according to my own experience, very rare and not very likely to happen in AH1.  Mr. Williams' opinion would suggest that being able to drop a fighter plane at ranges between 200~300yards, should be as hard as 600~800 yard shots which occur in AH1. If we take in the 'pilot skill' factor into the game, and double the effective range of what Mr.Williams suggests, it would suggest that to be 'fairly realistic', a 400~500 yard shot should be as hard as 800 yard shots currently seen in AH1, with most of the kills occuring within 250yards, 300~400 yard shots being considered as "long range", and 400~500 yard shots considered "lucky".)

 
 I'm not aware of what WB3 did to change the gunnery, but I seem to recall someone saying that it was artificial neutering of the gunnery. If that's the case, while I'd understand it as a gameplay concession, and even admit it as something better than what is current in AH, still, I'd not feel comfortable about it.

 The best way would be to try to implement as much real-life factors that were in real-life as possible into the game, so the effective range of gunnery naturally falls lower than what it used to be. One certain method would be to remove ammo counters from planes that did not have them - the IL2/FB experience teaches me that my trigger-happiness is greatly influenced by whether or not I can keep accurate track of just how much ammunition is available to me. Other things like limiting maximum convergence tweaking to 400yards would also help. There are various factors which are not present in AH that should be. (The seemingly more difficult gunnery in AH2 is partially due to the fact that the tracers have changed, and the 'hit sprites' are much less visible than it used to be - which is indeed a good thing)

 All in all, I agree that 800yd+ shots are bullshi*. But to be frank, I really don't see much of it happening. It's a rare thing to happen. The 'average' ranges where kills normally occur in all occasions - around 400~600 yards - is the larger problem. Honestly, no matter how much a pilot sucks, I can never feel safe as long as he is within 600yards because I know I'm gonna die if I don't jink hard enough.

 We'll just have to see what happens with AH2, but frankly the harder the gunnery is(or rather, the more close to real life ranges it drops down to..) the more intense, and more ACM oriented the game becomes. One thing for certain, is as I've said in the past, people will start finding planes like Spit9s or N1K2s hugely unattractive if effective gunnery ranges(ranges which a pilot can expect to bring a plane down) drop down to something like 300yards maximum.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 12:21:15 PM by Kweassa »

Offline Furious

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« Reply #108 on: May 05, 2004, 12:41:54 PM »
It's easy enough to check dispersion using the .target command.

The image attached was taken after setting target to 800yds  and holding trigger for 5 seconds.  The target was then moved to 100yds and I zoomed in for the screenshot.  I then enlarged the hits in photoshop so that they woud read better.

You would have to ask HT what dimensions the rings represent as I do not know.



Offline Phantom4

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« Reply #109 on: May 05, 2004, 01:12:06 PM »
Well I lay no claim to be an expert just some hands on experience.  I have opinions that are honed by those experiences but I would never say they are facts.  With that said, I will state that I know of no rifle are machine gun design that purposely introduces errors (or variations).  I would feel that a small amount of dispersion in a weapon with a high rate of fire would improve the hit probability.  The variations in individual bullets, various tolerances in the manufacturinf process, and the recoil effects of the weapon should produce enough dispersion that you would not need to design in errors.  On the other hand, in multi-gun and multi barrelled weapons systems designed for air to air or anti-air purposes each barrel or gun was slightly offset to produce a larger area of dispersion and actually improved the hit probability. Much like the dispersion pattern of shot from a shotgun.  It is easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle.

Offline lasersailor184

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« Reply #110 on: May 05, 2004, 01:21:38 PM »
The driver in a GV can be killed just as well as the pilot in a plane can.
Punishr - N.D.M. Back in the air.
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Offline ChasR

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« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2004, 01:52:16 PM »
Morph,
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #112 on: May 05, 2004, 04:00:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Phantom4-Mag33
Well I lay no claim to be an expert just some hands on experience.  I have opinions that are honed by those experiences but I would never say they are facts.  With that said, I will state that I know of no rifle are machine gun design that purposely introduces errors (or variations).  I would feel that a small amount of dispersion in a weapon with a high rate of fire would improve the hit probability.  The variations in individual bullets, various tolerances in the manufacturinf process, and the recoil effects of the weapon should produce enough dispersion that you would not need to design in errors.  On the other hand, in multi-gun and multi barrelled weapons systems designed for air to air or anti-air purposes each barrel or gun was slightly offset to produce a larger area of dispersion and actually improved the hit probability. Much like the dispersion pattern of shot from a shotgun.  It is easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle.
Phantom4, thanks for that. I've underlined the parts in your reply which were of particular note. ^

Indeed - the whole point of dispersion was to increase the hit probability. I do believe that the same applied to certain hand held machine guns, and that such errors compensated for lack of marksmanship on the part of the user. (Please forgive my total lack of military parlance!) What I'm trying to say is that a machine gun, for example, would be set to fire three rounds on one squeeze of the trigger. The rounds would not all follow the same path, so a greater chance of getting ONE hit was possible. But of course at very close range, all three rounds could be expected to find their target. ...and this is my understanding of the reason for dispersion in WW2 warplane armaments.

Yes - easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle, BUT... still possible to hit a bird at 500 yards with a rifle, but totally impossible with a shotgun. Of course, a shotgun's accuracy/effectiveness depends on the type of shot. But I've been told that beyond 60 yards, a kill of a bird is unlikely with a shotgun. But that would be for TWO reasons: 1)Dispersion, 2)loss of kinetic energy.

Kweassa - It wasn't WB3 which brought in the new gunnery model. It was the highly controversial WB 2.6. The main differences were that the effective range of any weapon was greatly reduced, and each individual hit was recorded instead of packets of hits. This needed much more FE processing power. I had only a P2-266 at the time. I upgraded to 450MHz, and saw a big difference. Later upgraded to 1.2GHz, and finally could get multikill sorties in a 109 - lol.  You're right - the hit sprites were toned down.

Offline Morpheus

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« Reply #113 on: May 05, 2004, 04:03:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ChasR
Morph,
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun.


LOL! I have a follower laideis and gentlemen.

Dude you really must learn to read everything before making a comment.

Here I was called out for an honest mistake.


Quote
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun, the .50 is an M2.


And here is where I noted he was not only correct but also gave the source of my information.

Quote
Forgive me. Was at work and almost pressed for time. Here is my documented source. Book entitled "Marine Sniper" writen by Charles Henderson documenting Sgt. Carlos Hathnoodles Military career


LOL ChasR!

Too funny

But thanks for caring:lol
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Be A WARRIOR NOT A WORRIER!

Offline ChasR

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« Reply #114 on: May 05, 2004, 04:10:35 PM »
Caught me on that one.  I admit I didn't read em all.  Sorry.

Offline Tumor

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« Reply #115 on: May 05, 2004, 04:20:06 PM »
Ya... I know about those guys from doing my own early morning flying while I was on graveyard shift.

It's simple... they know about lag, they play to lag, and they depend on it.

T.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Charon

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« Reply #116 on: May 05, 2004, 05:01:02 PM »
Beetle, you cannot compare the dispersion between a shotgun and a rifle. A shotgun fires a bunch of loosly packed pellets in a smooth bore barrel vs. a high velocity single projectile in a rifled barrel. As for the natural dispersion with a machine gun -- it is nowhere near that from a shotgun.

As I recall, the three round burst came into being to save ammunition. A machine gun will rise and move to either the left or right (I cant remember) when fired. Your arm is not a rigid steel mounting. You could hit a target with an aimed shot on full automatic at fairly close range with all of about three shots before you start missing. But, you were expected to hit the target with the first round of the burst, and I suppose fire somewhat aimed bursts instead of put it on auto and rock'n roll a clip.

As for dispersion, with a heavy machine gun...

Again (I seem to remember replying to this exact same comparison before), you qualify (or at lease used to) with the M2 .50 cal by having to hit a BMP sized target (frontal dimension, I believe) out to 800 yards. You must hit this target within 12 rounds. The bullets have some dispersion at that range, but not enough to even be remotely compared to the spread of a shotgun -- a handfull of yards at most. It is also a flex mounting with vertical and horizontal freedom of movement (steadied by human arms) and not a rigid aircraft style mounting. The only time I saw that type of spread from M2 was when the barrel was shot out and the tracers left a visible "quake railgun" spiral as they left the barrel.

You also expected the ammo to penetrate a BMP type armored vehicle at that range. Now, the ammo was improved from WW2, but then again a Me-109 is not an armored assault or recon vehicle either :)

I'm a sucky shot in AH (much like real life WW2 pilots in general), and the only time I get consistant hits at 600+ yards the target tends to not be doing even the minimum evasives (giving multiple opportunities to walk the rounds in using short bursts just like you would on the firing range), perhaps thinking that they are even farther out of range and immune because of the "objects in the mirror are closer" lag effect. The only time I seem to get smacked by a spray and pray .50 or hispanio plane at 600+ yards is if I don't make even the slightest evasives.

FWIW, dispersion was dialed in through convergence -- or not. Some pilots/commands liked the idea and others didn't. Generally, as stated in numerous accounts, pilots of all nations were poorly trained on A2A gunnery with deflection shooting being something mainly for the farm boys and skeet shooters. The average sim pilot takes for granted the fact that leading a target, vs shooting right at it, and the amount of lead required, are second nature. The same for bullet rise and drop over distance.

[edit: the cannons ao a N1K2 are not quite in the .50/hispanio league, but if the target is not manuvering it would only take a few extra adjustment bursts to get hits, which of course provide blast and fragmentation damage making "1 ping" a more serious isue than with a .50]

Charon
« Last Edit: May 05, 2004, 05:21:59 PM by Charon »

Offline Pyro

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« Reply #117 on: May 05, 2004, 05:11:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Furious
You would have to ask HT what dimensions the rings represent as I do not know.
 


Each ring is 10 feet.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #118 on: May 05, 2004, 05:54:29 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charon
Beetle, you cannot compare the dispersion between a shotgun and a rifle. A shotgun fires a bunch of loosly packed pellets in a smooth bore barrel vs. a high velocity single projectile in a rifled barrel. As for the natural dispersion with a machine gun -- it is nowhere near that from a shotgun.
Good post, and point taken. I was just trying to demonstrate that when a weapon is designed to disperse rounds to create a better chance of getting a hit, that this concept is only any good at relatively close range. Beyond that range, the projectiles (whether they be .50 cal, cannon, or shotgun pellets) will be too widely dispersed to achieve anything more than a lucky ping. Of course, the ballistics of shotgun pellets means that their effective range is only going to be short, regardless of dispersion. But by the same token, surely a high velocity single shot rifle does not need dispersion, and therefore it can be expected to be accurate to 1000/2000yds. A totally different concept from automatic fire from a plane with bendy wings.

Furious/Pyro - I've tried that .target command. I can't get it to work. I've checked HELP but am no wiser. A few pointers please?

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #119 on: May 05, 2004, 06:30:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
In a turn fight????? Common Levi. I dont know what point you are trying to make but you are going about it in the wrong way...


Turnfighting ability is now the criterion for perking a plane?  If so, we'd wind up perking the Spit V, A6M2, A6M5, FM2/F4F, and Hurricanes.  

Naturally the Spit V flies circles around the F4U-1C in a turnfight.  It also flies circles around a N1K in a turnfight too.  Naturally the N1K turns best of those two opponents, so it's relatively more difficult to dispatch, but any criteria for perking must consider the totality of the Main Arena experience.  Overall, the F4U-1C is a much better Main Arena plane than the N1K or the Spit V.

-- Todd/Leviathn