Author Topic: AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"  (Read 1803 times)

Offline Gixer

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« on: May 07, 2004, 08:40:49 PM »
Seems US public relations are on a downward slope and it's just going to get worse. Here's another story doing the rounds. The film itself is still floating around the net. Personally I thought the actions of the crew was poor killing the wounded man and given they never identified that the tube was a weapon nor was any weapon ever pointed at them. Seems alot of other people thought the same and is another story for the press to exploit.



Someone wounded,' the pilot cries. Then he received the reply: "Hit him, hit the truck and him.' ...The pilot fires a 30mm gun at the wounded man, vaporising him in a second...
 
ROBERT FISK

The pictures are appalling, the words devastating. As a wounded Iraqi crawls from beneath a burning truck, an American helicopter pilot tells his commander that one of three men has survived his night air attack. "Someone wounded,' the pilot cries. Then he received the reply: "Hit him, hit the truck and him.' As the helicopter's gun camera captures the scene on video, the pilot fires a 30mm gun at the wounded man, vaporising him in a second.

British and most European television stations censored the tape off the air last night on the grounds that the pictures were too terrible to show. But deliberately shooting a wounded man is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions and this extraordinary film of US air crews in action over Iraq is likely to create yet another international outcry.

American and British personnel have been trying for weeks to persuade Western television stations to show the video of the attack. Despite the efforts of reports in Baghdad and New York, most television controllers preferred to hide the evidence from viewers. Only Canal Plus in France, ABC television in the United States and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation have so far had the courage to show the shocking footage. UK military personnel in the Gulf region have confirmed that the tape is genuine.

The camera, mounted beside the 30mm cannon of a US Apache helicopter on patrol over central Iraq on 1 December, first picks up movement on a country road, apparently several hundred metres from an American military checkpoint. A lorry and a smaller vehicle, probably a pick-up, come into view and a man--apparently unaware of the hovering helicopter-- is seen moving to a field on the left of the screen.

He is carrying what seems to be a tube with a covering; it may be a rocket-propelled grenade. One of two helicopter pilots is heard to say: "Big truck over here. He's having a little pow-wow.' The driver of the pick-up looks around, reaches into the vehicle, takes out the tube-shaped object and runs from the road into the field. He drops the object and returns to the truck. The pilot then radios:

"I got a guy running, throwing a weapon.' Another pilot, or a ground controller, instructs him: "Engage...smoke him.'

At this point, a tractor arrives close to where the man from the lorry dropped the object in the field. One of the Iraqis approaches the tractor driver. The Apache pilot opens fire with his 30mm cannon, killing first the Iraqi in the field and then the tractor driver. The camera registers the bullets hitting the first man. All that is left is a smudge on the ground.

The pilot then turns his attention to the large truck, opens fire and waits to see if he has hit the last of the three men. The third man is then seen crawling, obviously badly wounded, from his cover beneath the blazing truck.

The pilot reports: "Wait. Someone wounded by the truck.' An officer replies: "Hit him. Hit the truck and him.'

The video tape shows that the incident took four minutes, during which the two helicopter pilots--whose names are listed as Nager and Alioto--expended 300 high-velocity cannon rounds at their targets. The tape shows that the first 15 rounds missed the men. One of the pilots says: "****, switching to range auto." The tape then documents the firing of four bursts of 20 rounds each at the three men.

The pictures, apparently taken through thermal-imaging cameras, leave no doubt that the pilot knew his third victim was wounded and crawling along the ground--and that whoever gave him the order to hit him also knew this.

Coming only days after the appalling photographs of Iraqis being tortured and humiliated by US troops at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, the new pictures can only further inflame Arab opinion throughout the Middle East.
It is common Israeli practice to kill wounded enemies from the air; a devastating helicopter assault by Israel on a Hizbollah training camp in Lebanon 10 years ago was accompanied by a series of attacks in which pilots sought out wounded guerrillas as they hid behind rocks in the Bekaa Valley and then fired at them.

The film, while it shows men acting in an apparently suspicious manner, does not prove they were handling weapons. The occupation authorities in Baghdad chose to keep the incident secret when it occurred in December. Watching the video images, it is easy to understand why.

Offline Maverick

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2004, 08:46:53 PM »
BTW this is a very old film clip. It did not come out just days after the scandal. BTW they did announce the "scandal" and steps being taken to correct it quite some time ago. It's just news now as the election is getting close.

Make out of it what you want.
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Offline txmx

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2004, 08:50:07 PM »
Lets see you are in a war and you see what you believe to be the enemy with a RPG.
Perhapes they should have ask them over a loud speaker I say old boy is that an RPG and do you intend to shoot us with it?

Also this guncam footage was released long before this whole prison mess came up.


And as far as killing the wounded guy crawling on the ground.

Well If i was the dude that just got blasted by 30mm cannon rounds and was horribly wounded I would beg for them to finnish me off! seems almost the humain
thing to do really.

Do you expect soldiers to be polite to the very same people who are trying to kill them?

Please think about that for a moment.
It takes a hard heart to kill and  and I'm sure that these proffesional soldiers were well within there rules of engagment.

Remeber allways they are there and we aint!
« Last Edit: May 08, 2004, 10:34:50 AM by txmx »

Offline Curval

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2004, 08:59:37 PM »
I've got that footage on my hard drive.  Had it for a long time.  It was posted here and then Skuzzy removed it.

What great timing on behalf of the media.

At least now the full story will probably come out.
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Offline Slash27

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2004, 09:08:19 PM »
You can find it at http://www.ebaumsworld.com in the extreme videos section. The film and the above written description do not exactly match. The film is in "infra red" and shows an Apache shooting up some soldiers  who appear to be manning what looks like an anti aircraftgun to me. The Apache then blows them to hell. Funny how that happens in war.





On a lighter note check out "cat fan" in the funny videos section.:aok

Offline txmx

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2004, 09:12:22 PM »
Yea I give the cat fan a 9.5 on the giggle meter.

Offline Slash27

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2004, 09:13:24 PM »
Personally I thought the actions of the crew was poor killing the wounded man and given they never identified that the tube was a weapon nor was any weapon ever pointed at them

When is the "right" time to identify a weapon that might be used against you? Before or after its pointed and fired at you?

Offline Pei

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2004, 09:13:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
You can find it at http://www.ebaumsworld.com in the extreme videos section. The film and the above written description do not exactly match. The film is in "infra red" and shows an Apache shooting up some soldiers  who appear to be manning what looks like an anti aircraftgun to me. The Apache then blows them to hell. Funny how that happens in war.
 


That's a different video.

Offline Slash27

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2004, 09:14:30 PM »
Yea I give the cat fan a 9.5 on the giggle meter.

We woke up half the station when we found that one late one night.:D

Offline Slash27

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2004, 09:18:15 PM »
Hit him, hit the truck and him.' ...

This led me to believe it was the same video and the writer put some extra spin on it. If I got it wrong then my bad. I guess you get the jist of what a 30mm can do either way.

Offline GRUNHERZ

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2004, 09:28:50 PM »
Another delightful Robert Fisk article, I wouldn't be surprised if that terrorist loving piece of watermelon edits the AlQaeda newsletter...

Offline hawker238

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2004, 09:57:42 PM »
The video on ebaum's clearly shows the guy crawling from the truck, the gunner hesitating to shoot him, and the command "he's wounded, hit him," and "above the truck, hit him."

Offline Gunslinger

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2004, 10:06:51 PM »
WHAT HALF THE WORLD DOESNT REALIZE is there is a full length film floating around were the crew is monitoring the enemy and relaying/talking to a command post.  They get permission from command to take them out.

That being said.....This whole mess scares the hell out of me.....



When the bullets start flying alot of the rules go out the window and insticts take over.  Now this may not be wholey applicable to the appache crew BUT, if this "trend" of over analyzing everything starts to happen with our military in the field.

With information being transmitted at the speed of light now BAD things that happen in war are now public knowledge.  It may not be any consolation to people to know that this is the face of war.  It is not pretty....it is not glorious....it is hard to digest.

Now my point....Whether it's right or wrong....will this start causing US servicemen in combat to start second guessing themsleves with everything they do in combat?  When an NCO barks "TAKE THAT HILL/BUNKER"  you want a well trained individual to start acting and stop thinking.  Will this cause that individual to stop and think will this get me in trouble later.  

I think attrocities should be punished.  It should be well known in the service that you do somthing wrong....you pay the man.  I dont think these should be highly publisized or politicised.  

Just my thaughts gents
« Last Edit: May 07, 2004, 10:08:55 PM by Gunslinger »

Offline rpm

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2004, 10:26:41 PM »
OK, 99% of us here has seen the video and know what is in it. The crew was following the rules of engagement and follwed the pickup to several locations dropping off  what was known to be weapons.

Remember the guy that walked to the tractor? As soon as he saw they were under fire he was unwrapping that weapon as fast as he could. I'm sure if I'm an innocent farmer under fire the first thing I do is unwrap a new piece of irrigation pipe.

As far as the usage of the 30mm weapon against people, they fail to mention that it is the smallest weapon on the helo. Perhaps the gunner should have opened the cockpit and used his sidearm. I'm sorry, but they should be happy that they didn't use a Hellfire.

Killing the guy that crawled out from under the truck after he was wounded might seem extreeme. Nobody knows his condition, he could possibly try to fire a weapon or escape. You KILL the enemy unless they surrender. That is just a cold hard fact of war and I saw no sign of attempted surrender.

The aircrew did their job exactly as they should have.
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Offline Kanth

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AH-64 Video Court Martials "Smoke Em"
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2004, 10:34:32 PM »
It's very easy to sit at home and look at a portion of a video in complete safety and analyze it and find fault.

 If they are going to be reviewed, it needs to be by their peers.

This is what we accept in our judicial system.  Anything less is unacceptable.
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