Author Topic: Dora experts ... (Read 5193 times)

Crumpp · « **Reply #30 on:** May 31, 2004, 11:19:52 AM »

BTW,
The fact that the same folks have discussed the FW-190A MW-50 on several different BB's doesn't impress me.

Facts are the LW produced a bewildering number of varients for the "two" single engine dayfighters they used. These varients are in fact in most cases completely different planes with the exception of outward appearence. Combined with destroyed records of installation of the various boost systems it is easy to see why there are so many discrepancies.

Again, My much more trusted sources than you, say the MW-50 boost system was used on several 190A4's, FW-190A5/U8, and some 190A8's.

Facts are someone who has published 3 Schiffer Military History Books on the 190 exclusively, Osprey publishing, and Squadron Signal have more crediability IMO than some prolific BB poster.

Crumpp

Batz · « **Reply #31 on:** May 31, 2004, 11:24:38 AM »

Quote

I would say that the Jumo 213A was designed for use with either B4 and MW50 or C3 w/o MW50 exactly like the DB605D in DB configuration. I'm also quite sure that it was not fitted with a similar system as the DB605D which enabled the DC configuration (C3+MW50).

It seems to be confirmed by all documents i have, and moreover it sounds quite the right solution for a Luftwaffe lacking high grade fuel.

So it would appear the D9 could use C3 + C3 injection, but because of the lack of C3 most used B4 + Mw50. Bury has a chart that has a C3 power curve plus an image of a d9 with a C3 fuel decal.

Whether you agree or not makes no difference considering your track record...

YMMV

Batz · « **Reply #32 on:** May 31, 2004, 11:31:28 AM »

Do you even know who the folks over there are "doing the discussing".

Butch told you mw50 was never serialized on the A-series 190s.

Do you think you have better source then him?

You see you problem is you dont know who it is thats correcting you. You buy a few books over the counter and claim your an expert.

Ask those other guys about their sources...

Crumpp · « **Reply #33 on:** May 31, 2004, 12:25:51 PM »

Look,

Produce the RLM documentation and the picture. NONE of the RLM documentation I have seen to include the Jumo 213 E or F test's for the later D series has C3. In fact they are very clearly labeled B4. There are no facts before me to change this.

Right now all I have is the "quote" history you are refering too. Your claims NOT backed up by any printed material. Just websites or rather should I say "fansites".

I'm Sorry, but just because You, GScholtz, HoHun, and few others post on other BB's does not change a thing.

Crumpp

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #34 on:** May 31, 2004, 12:40:25 PM »

Thank goodness for Crumpp...

Without him the fallacy that these sorry german fighters could even get off the ground on their on power would have continued endlessly....

Crumpp · « **Reply #35 on:** May 31, 2004, 12:47:19 PM »

Yep, That's why I fly these sorry LW fighters exclusively in AH and belong to a LW squad.

I'm sorry to have slighted the "master race"!

Crumpp

GScholz · « **Reply #36 on:** May 31, 2004, 02:26:08 PM »

Crumpp the MrBlack of the "Aircraft and Vehicles" forum strikes again.

Crumpp · « **Reply #37 on:** May 31, 2004, 04:22:16 PM »

You guys are priceless!

No one has disputed the Jumo 213 was able to develop 1900 hp without MW 50. That is a fact. The Jumo TAW developed an interim (pronounced EN - TIR - UHM) boost that did NOT involve C3 fuel but used B4 which WAS used for a fact in the 213 at the time TAM installed it in II/JG54's Dora's.

The DB 603 series engines used in the D-14, D-15 and Ta-152 series used both B4 and C3 but I have seen no evidence the 213 used C3.

If C3 was used in the 213 just provide the RLM data and not some third party "extrapolation" (pronounced X - TRAP - O - LAY - SHUN).

Crumpp

Crumpp - Pronounced CRUMPP

Batz · « **Reply #38 on:** May 31, 2004, 04:31:14 PM »

Do even know what B4 and C3 are?

Switching between fuel types requires some simple maintenance adjustments (timing etc).

The Jumo ran on B4 + Mw50 because of availablility not because it could not use C3.

Same with the DBs. Most used B4 + Mw50. Most C3 was sent to the A series 190 units.

Bury's email is on his site, ask him to send you what he has on the dora.

But I forget you spent 9.99 on the SSS books so you are an "expert"...

CHUMPP - pronounced chumpp

Crumpp · « **Reply #39 on:** May 31, 2004, 04:47:06 PM »

Yeah ok Batz,

I will just run out and put some JP-4 in an engine rated for JP-8, it is after just Jet Fuel and will only require a few adjustments....

Crumpp

GScholz · « **Reply #40 on:** May 31, 2004, 05:02:43 PM »

*LOL!* Yeah jet engines have a lot in common with piston engines. What a moron.

Tell me Crumpp do you use 87 octane in your car, or perhaps premium? I run my BMW on 98 octane, but I can run it fine on 87 if I want (we just don't get that low fuel grade here). The DB engined 109s were supposed to use C3 too, but most had to make due with B4 instead because of availability shortages. I don't think they even had to adjust the engines like Batz said, they just couldn't apply as much boost with the B4. B4 and C3 are both synthetic gasoline, just with different octane ratings.

GScholz · « **Reply #41 on:** May 31, 2004, 05:04:41 PM »

And btw. interim is pronounced "IN-TE-RIM".

Batz · « **Reply #42 on:** May 31, 2004, 05:47:29 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Crumpp
Yeah ok Batz,

I will just run out and put some JP-4 in an engine rated for JP-8, it is after just Jet Fuel and will only require a few adjustments....

Crumpp

You cant be that dense.....

GS,

You maybe correct in that the Jumo may need no "tuning" at all to switch from B4 to C3.

Butch said this about the DB605D

Quote

In fact there are no DB605DB and DB605DC per se, since they refer to the same engine the DB605D which could be configured at will by just turning a screw to accept either B4 or C3 fuel. So one could transform a DB 605DB into a DB 605DC and reverse very easily. I'm not sure the Jumo 213 could be configured as easily.

Butch

Whether there is any adjustment needed at all, it certainly wasnt major.

GScholz · « **Reply #43 on:** May 31, 2004, 06:00:07 PM »

The only necessary adjustment I can think of would be on the blower, to limit the allowed boost to avoid detonation.

GODO · « **Reply #44 on:** May 31, 2004, 06:08:33 PM »

190D9 units were using MW50 before 1 Oct 1944. The "Einmotorige Jager" table signed 1 Oct 1944 is already listing Jumo213A WEP for D9s as MW50 boost, and no other kind of boost is described there but MW50.