Frightening E-mail

[-MZ-]

Originally posted by ravells

How do they deal with the fact that the 'son of god' had olive skin?

I don't know.  

Check out some 'Christian Identity' websites and ask them.

[Boroda]

Originally posted by ravells
Oh come on Boroda...it's a game of comparatives. If America's human rights record has been bad, then the USSR's record was abysmal, or worse.  How can you possibly say that the Soviet press was free to report what it wanted to in those times?

You talk a lot of sense sometimes, but I think your pursuit of the argument kills your good points when you say things like this.

Ravs

Another Westerner who thinks I am 100% pro-Soviet Cold-war era believer of Soviet propaganda

Soviet press wasn't free to report anthing that contradicted with Party line. Major American press also wasn't free to report things that contradict with your traditions and political interests. There is no such thing as a free press.

What I want you to understand is that both systems were not "good" or "bad", they were different. Soviet propaganda telling people about unemployment in the US was true, but funny for Soviet people: there were no unemployment in USSR, so many people couldn't understand what it meant. Soviet propaganda also told about racial problems in the US, about political pressure (that existed and you have to admit it, in some ways it was worse then Soviet), about poverty and other things. Was it true? Sure it was. Was it working? No, many people believed Voice of America and BBC Russian Service telling fairy-tales about how good the life is in the West. Both societies were so different that some things couldn't be understood correctly. For example: VoA describes the newest Chrysler car, how good it is, and then says: everyone can go and buy it. Reaction from a Soviet listener: WOW! That yankees can just take their money any time and go buy this fantastic car without signing in queue and waiting for 10 years to get a ZAZ (Soviet equivalent of VW Bug). Noone ecplained them on VoA that 90% of Americans can't afford this car, and if they can - they have to pay for the credit for years and years working their prettythang off.

There is no perfect society. And on the common values list "freedom of speech" is far behind rhe right to live, the right to be fed, the right to have a place to dwell. If it contradicts with any of that values - screw it. If there is any prettythanghole preaching that "EVERY SINGLE JEW (not just Israel) IN THE WORLD MUST BE ANNIHILATED" - lock him up. His "right to speak freely" contradicts with someone's else right to live.  What you guys protect is a huge, irresponsible distortion of morale, that, in fact, is a set of rules that ensure the survival of human race. It's just like bombing millions of people "to stone age" because some weird regime doesn't ensure the freedom of speech and other Western-style "civilian liberties".

I am not trying to defend Soviet regime in any way. I just try to explain my point of view. Pork calling me "Soviet" (in fact - what he means by "Soviet") is very wrong.

[ravells]

Ah, your point of view makes sense now you have explained it.

But understand that I am not talking about 'good' and 'bad', I am talking about the comparative ease in which one could publish critical material in the US as opposed to the old Soviet Union.

Sure, I'm sure there are cases where commercial or governmental pressure may have been brought to suppress a publication in the U.S., but I would say to you that the amount of critical (whether of the government, corporations, people - you name it) material published in the US far outweighs that which was ever published in the USSR (not that I've ever read any Russian material - but you can tell me if I'm wrong about this). This would make sense because in the US there are many competing interests, but in the Soviet Union, the state held all the power, so there was only one interest with almost absolute power. In the US, nobody has a similar amount of power, which means it is more likely for dissenting material to get published.

I agree that there are no perfect societies, but I think that there are some societies which protect basic human rights better than others. The liberties I am talking about are not 'Western' they are universal, as enshrined the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

Thanks for your post, though. It was a very interesting read.

Ravs

[cpxxx]

I don't know about the email. It could simply be 'black propaganda' designed to stir up anti Muslim feelings. But like all propaganda it has a grain of truth. Wahabbism (spelling) originated in Saudi Arabia and sponsored by them is quite simply is the leading 'ism' throughout US mosques.  It's fair to say it represents the viewpoint of most of the Al Qaeda crowd.  That is not to say there is any realistic possibility of it's aims been achieved or that US Muslims are going to rise up and try to take over America.

You really cannot generalise about Muslims any more than you can generalise about Christians. For example Presbyterians are supposed to believe that Catholics are idolators, the Catholic mass is blasphemous and that the pope is the anti-Christ.  Apart from a certain Ian Paisley and some others many wouldn't take that too seriously (I hope!)

Not all Muslims are extremists or even potential extremists. That occured to me today when I saw a Muslim woman wearing a skirt that didn't exactly cover her legs. Her only concession to her religion was a headscarf.  

You simply can't generalise, Muslims are much like Christians in the way they practice their religion. Every shade is available.

The extremists are not good examples of Muslims anymore than Ian Paisley is a good example of a Presbyterian.

On another issue, Boroda has made some interesting. His comments on human rights reminds me of a remark by my Father that is as true today as it ever was.

   'You have no rights other than those other people allow you to have.'

Always bear that in mind.

[Boroda]

Thank you!

You are right about the fact that "freedom of press" in USSR was non-existant. But if you wanted to get information from different sources - you could do it without any problem. Everyone could afford a short-wave radio. I could listen to VoA and BBC on an old tube radio, regardless to jamming. And if you were outside of Moscow/Leningrad or other major cities - the jamming didn't bother you at all.

OTOH the "state censorship" is somethimes greatly overestimated. Some books published in USSR since mid-50s (not even speaking about the freedom of the 20s when even White-emigrant books could be printed without any problems) are amazing. Probably every Western view on WWII history could be found, even the memoirs and studies of former nazi generals and officers were availible in Russian (certainly with comments and prefaces according to Party line).

What modern commies and most of the Western people forget about is a concept of "proletarian internationalism" as an official doctrine. Soviet films, books and press were politicaly correct to the extreme, noone could say that, for example, "all Americans are evil". Propaganda was aimed mostly at social groups. Propaganda of war, violence and nationalism was strictly prohibited.

Again: I don't want to say that Soviet regime was good, I don't want to go back to Soviet times. I just don't like when people in the West think that we had some kind of inhuman society that was pure evil. Unfortunately modern Russia didn't inherit most of Soviet achievements like medical care, science, social stability and confidence in our own future. Education is rapidly going down the drain too... And current internal politics looks as if it is aimed at reducing the population to Brzezinsky's 40 millions by eliminating "unnessesary inhabitants".

[Capt. Pork]

Originally posted by Boroda
Pork calling me "Soviet" (in fact - what he means by "Soviet") is very wrong.

Do you consider it an insult?

If so, I guess I owe you an apology. I didn't think you would.

[ravells]

Originally posted by Boroda
Thank you!

You are right about the fact that "freedom of press" in USSR was non-existant. But if you wanted to get information from different sources - you could do it without any problem. Everyone could afford a short-wave radio. I could listen to VoA and BBC on an old tube radio, regardless to jamming. And if you were outside of Moscow/Leningrad or other major cities - the jamming didn't bother you at all.

OTOH the "state censorship" is somethimes greatly overestimated. Some books published in USSR since mid-50s (not even speaking about the freedom of the 20s when even White-emigrant books could be printed without any problems) are amazing. Probably every Western view on WWII history could be found, even the memoirs and studies of former nazi generals and officers were availible in Russian (certainly with comments and prefaces according to Party line).

What modern commies and most of the Western people forget about is a concept of "proletarian internationalism" as an official doctrine. Soviet films, books and press were politicaly correct to the extreme, noone could say that, for example, "all Americans are evil". Propaganda was aimed mostly at social groups. Propaganda of war, violence and nationalism was strictly prohibited.

Again: I don't want to say that Soviet regime was good, I don't want to go back to Soviet times. I just don't like when people in the West think that we had some kind of inhuman society that was pure evil. Unfortunately modern Russia didn't inherit most of Soviet achievements like medical care, science, social stability and confidence in our own future. Education is rapidly going down the drain too... And current internal politics looks as if it is aimed at reducing the population to Brzezinsky's 40 millions by eliminating "unnessesary inhabitants".

You're welcome

I think the future of the Soviet Union would have been very different if it wasn't fighting a cold war. Socialism is a system which will only work if money goes into social causes rather than an arms race.

I know things will pick up for ex-Soviet countries, but it's going to be a long and hard road, I fear.

Ravs

[Boroda]

Originally posted by Capt. Pork
Do you consider it an insult?

If so, I guess I owe you an apology. I didn't think you would.

No problem Nasha Rodina - CCCP! (BTW, it's a adverdisment slogan for FM radio "Russkoye radio-2" in Moscow)

I hope I have made some things clear for you in this thread, about my attitude towards Soviet times...

[Boroda]

Originally posted by ravells
You're welcome

I think the future of the Soviet Union would have been very different if it wasn't fighting a cold war. Socialism is a system which will only work if money goes into social causes rather than an arms race.

This is exactly what I think. The burden was too heavy, especially after the War when half of the country was in ruins.

Look at the Chinese: they didn't abandon communist ideology, but simply have let people work. Now they have some things that were impossible even in USSR: they invited local businessmen to join the Party! Their military spendings are almost unnoticable compared to their GNP.

Originally posted by ravells

I know things will pick up for ex-Soviet countries, but it's going to be a long and hard road, I fear.
 

So far the country is moving towards some strange kind of olygocracy, with 90% of population considered an "unnessessary human waste".