COMMUNITY and #1

[TBolt A-10]

Originally posted by Silat
AW had it right by having an OC that you entered when you joined the game. There you could see all, friendlies and enemas, who were entering the game with you. You could chat and make friends which builds COMMUNITY.
 

I remember the Officer's Club.    Yea, I never realized how cool it was until we lost it.

Initially, I was opposed to cancelling chanel 1.  But, that was before I realized that the community would just find another channel & go about their business.  Now, I say, if anyone wants to participate on the arena channel (200), let 'em tune to it.  

[GA]

It is the difference between having the book in your face when you wake up, and having to push it away if you don't want to read, compared to going over and picking up the book when you want to read it.

Nicely said;).

The only diffrent i see it is that you have to tune to channel 200 insted of getting it on channel 1 when you log on, and have to squelch it if you dont want to listen to all players in the arena on channel 1.

So bottom line for some in this post is actualy a issue to just turn to another channel(200) to talk to all players

Im probely stupit, but i see no big probelm in this, if you want to talk to the hole communety in that arena, just switch to channel 200.

No wounder HTC rearly speaks on the BBS no more. I think they have more issue to take care off insted of some who dont have the strange to type in a channel to tune with the one they they prefere to talk with.

I understand the communety that wil have communication with all in this game and I agrre with it, but just tune to channel 200 and keep have fun;)

[sling322]

Originally posted by TDeacon
quote:

I like your implied suggestion Sling322.  If I understand it correctly, you are advocating the existence of channel 1, with community policing.  

Now all we have to do is think of a mechanism, or combination of mechanisms, to implement this.  I suggest the following problem decomposition:

1)  A posted set of standards for conduct on channel 1.  (I know some of this is "obvious", but posted standards would help for the less obvious behaviors).  Call this "topic A".  

2)  A means of community enforcement.  CAll this "topic B".  

BTW, I'm not saying HTC is interested in this input, but it can't hurt; maybe people would have good ideas which he might use in future.

Problem is....we had that already and it didnt work.  

When someone would get out of line and a moderator was in the arena and saw the remark he would issue a warning.  Then the person warned would go off on a tirade about what someone else was doing that was worse in his opinion.  After repeated taunts to the moderator, the offender would be muted and then a long rant about how unfair the moderators were would be launched on the message board here.  Look at some past threads about moderators and see what I mean.

I personally didnt have a problem with channel 1.  I could take it or leave it, but there were times when some idiot would get on there and make it his soapbox to spew all kinds of stupid political garbage that doesnt belong there.  Its a communication channel for an online flight sim....not a personal loudspeaker to use however you please.  Its not an AOL chatroom.  

HTC evidently saw the degradation and what channel 1 had become and decided that it wasnt an option for a default channel that every new player who didnt know how to squelch it was exposed to.  All it takes is for the new guy to see the crap on there and assume that was acceptable.  Then the cycle grows and you end up where we are now.  Unfortunately, channel 200 will probably end up the same content-wise....unless the community can police itself and set some kind of standards that everyone follows.  Its not that hard really but it will take effort from everyone and it will require everyone to tone back their ego a bit.  You know when you type something that is over the line.  If someone asks you to quit it....then quit it.  It has a lot to do with common courtesy and respect, but then again in an anonymous setting like an online game those two traits are all too often MIA.

[Simaril]

CH200, as predicted, has started with the inappropriate sexual references, political/religious ranting, and other junk that got us here in the first place. So what can we do to preserve even this degree of inter-country communication?

Software screens are made to be beaten, and the AH community is clearly creative -- so in the long run that approach seems futile, IMHO. What's more, it puts programming duties on Scuzzy's plate when his attention is appropriately focused on the primary game code anyway. Moderators set loose with general guidelines and judgement calls are recipe for whining --and since the whines land on HTC's lap, that approach is probably counterproductive too. (Plus, its been tried already.)

In my experience establishing self regulating systems, smoothest operation and greatest success rely heavily on advance knowledge of goals and expectations. If we were to give generous but explicit "Rules for conduct on CH1" the focus wouldnt be on the "moderator who's out to get me" but on the dweeb who knew the rules but spouted off anyway.

Try something like this:
1. No explicit use of the following profane terms: < insert examples here>. Derivations must have at least two changes from the actual word (I.e. F**k)
2. No racial, ethnic, or sexual slurs (including slurs regarding sexual orientation)
3. No reference to current politics or religious controversy. This is not intended to censor, but allow those using AH as a release from real life to enjoy themselves. Free discussion of these issues is encouraged, but in appropriate forums -- like BBS and chat rooms devoted to those issues.

Moderators don't interpret or use judgement, they take a screenshot and send it to the head moderator and HTC -- so those complaining can appeal formally to the head moderator. He/She would look at the rules, look and the screenshot, and make the call. And, as I do with my children, extended whining after the appeal extends the sanction. Moderators abusing their authority would also suffer consequences.

To those predictable protestors who would call this censorship, let me ask this:
How would you feel if your next door neighbor used his freedom to sell out to a nuclear processing plant? You'd immediately call the zoning board -- because the essential features of ANY community are self protection and self regulation.

So, do you think this could work?

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by Simaril
Moderators set loose with general guidelines and judgement calls are recipe for whining --and since the whines land on HTC's lap, that approach is probably counterproductive too. (Plus, its been tried already.)

There will always be whining, no matter what is done. But we don't see all that goes on. The complaints probably amount to a very small percentage. The great majority of players will comply to a warning, but we don't see that. And the lead moderator can handle the complaints if HTC wishes.

Originally posted by Simaril
If we were to give generous but explicit "Rules for conduct on CH1" the focus wouldnt be on the "moderator who's out to get me" but on the dweeb who knew the rules but spouted off anyway.

Moderators don't interpret or use judgement, they take a screenshot and send it to the head moderator and HTC -- so those complaining can appeal formally to the head moderator.

There's something to be said for the above. When there is disruption going on in the arena, a moderator must make a judgement call to warn/mute the player. Making judgement calls is imperitive for a moderator.

A person can disrupt the game without cursing or racial slurs. A simple argument with civil language that goes on for a long time can be disruptive and earn a warning. And judgement is required to determine whether there is disruption. A moderator must be given guidelines and closely monitored, but left to his/her own devices on the job.

It is nearly impossible to list all the infractions, so it's often best to generalize. When you draw a clear line, many players will hug that line as close as they dare. There is no excuse for player infractions, because it's easy not to approach the line in the grey area of appropriate conduct. Players know when they are behaving obnoxiously, and the moderator warnings are fair notice that they have crossed this line.

grizzly

[Simaril]

Granted. There probably does need to be a "Stop being a jerk you idiot" clause, and judgement will come into that. But a guideline could also make that explicit -- maybe "Arguments that persist longer than 2 text buffers should be taken to private channel. In that circumstance the moderator will first send a warning, but if disregarded the parties involved will be sanctioned."

This way, judgement calls have some clear cut foundation besides "I'm tired of you," and the subjective element gets buffered by the warning.

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by Simaril
Granted. There probably does need to be a "Stop being a jerk you idiot" clause, and judgement will come into that. But a guideline could also make that explicit -- maybe "Arguments that persist longer than 2 text buffers should be taken to private channel. In that circumstance the moderator will first send a warning, but if disregarded the parties involved will be sanctioned."

This way, judgement calls have some clear cut foundation besides "I'm tired of you," and the subjective element gets buffered by the warning.

Yes, there must be guidelines and these must be set by the company. Companies have their own policies and operating style. From what I've seen, HTC prefers not to tie down the company by detailing all the words and infractions. They consider the moderator warning fair notice to the player. I think this is a good way to handle it because it places the onus on the player rather than bogging a small company down with minutia.

[hitech]

Simaril: Sounds great in theory, sucks in reality.

Rules of conduct realy do not need to be clearly stated. Almost everyone here already knows what exceptible social behavior is. Defineing specifics only lets the players who know what acceptible behavior is, but wish to push it as far as they can, do so and then claim," but your rules didn't say i couldn't do that". The rules said you can't use profanity, typing "F***" is not using profanity, it is just a typo.  Human judgemnt is what works, writing down specifics is what dosn't.

2nd Making the rules alone leads to problems, ok we have these rules now what happens when some one does cross the line. Going to have to post what happens ahead of time.

3rd Now since we have stated these rules, if we do not enforce each and every case, we open our selves up to a liablitly.

Also, our goal is not to act after the fact, i.e. take a screen shot, send to HTC. That meens that until we can see the screen shot the players behavior continues to be disruptive. Our goal is to inderdict the behavior as soon as feesible.



Our monitor system has worked fairly well overall. (we still need more players as monitors) but the items that has worked is the animimaty of the monitors.

It realy has prevented the arguments online with monitors. Cant argue with someone you don't know. Can't claim they have it out for you, when you don't even know who "THEY" are.

Also , no one knows when a monitor is online or not.

From the monitor side is also works fairly well, They can just handle things, with out all the side effects, and stigma that can would go along with it, if they were known. They also do not have to hear complaints from other players who might be carring a grudge against someone.

The 2nd item that has worked fairly well is the simple mute penalty as apposed to ejection.


HItech

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by sling322
Yeah it is.  If the "community" that you guys are clamoring over needing for the game to survive would take a little responsibility and police themselves we wouldnt have this problem.  But as long as the "community" allows more and more crap on channel 1 the more loose folks get with it and it leads to HTC making a decision to cancel the use of it.

If you can't see that, I can't help you.

What the community needs to police themselves is solidarity. When someone complains about a player's conduct, he's often shouted down with vulgarity or accusations of whining. There are few who will support him. If they did, those who are prone to skirt the rules or act obnoxiously may be less inclined to spout off. By saying nothing, players are adding to the problem instead of helping. So if you care about the game, let yourselves be heard when needed.

grizzly

[TweetyBird]

How about 1 rule.

In agreeing to suscribe to HTC, you also agree all decisions by its staff and online monitors regarding muting or removing a player are final and not subject to appeal.

[TBolt A-10]

Originally posted by Simaril
CH200, as predicted, has started with the inappropriate sexual references, political/religious ranting, and other junk that got us here in the first place. So what can we do to preserve even this degree of inter-country communication?

 

I'm sorry.  But, I don't think we should have to do a damn thing.  

HTC ought to include a disclaimer regarding anything that is said on channel 200, if they're really SO worried about it, and allow these people to have their fun.  Anyone that tunes to channel 200 cannot hold HTC liable for anything that is said.  

I can't believe that this is such a big deal.  

[FT_Animal]

Shaming idiots isn't hard, IMO. ;-)

anim (who finds it rather easy)

[Simaril]

Thanks for the reply, Skuzzy. i didnt even realize that moderators were around -- talk about a transparent system!!

Your points about liability are well taken.

With (obviously) finite corporate resources it would frankly be a waste to increase the workload on HTC.

In that case, i have to agree that the best "intervention" should just be to get good enough moderator coverage, and leave it at that. IMHO, this issue seems about settled.