U.S. warned it could lose air supremacy

[Chairboy]

True.  I think the current logic is that if they are unable to maintain air supremecy in a combat theatre, then the B-52's ambitious cousin the ICBM would be employed.

[B17Skull12]

Originally posted by ravells
It's not just about the aircraft though, is it? it's about the guidance systems and the avionics, the jamming etc. the aircraft now is just a delivery platform...isn't it?

Ravs

yeah pretty much.

[Gunslinger]

I think you guys are all wrong about the B-52....(I was actually crawling around in one today )  But seriously it's not just a line up over target and drop bombs weapons system.  Additionally, its also not a stand alone weapons platform.  It is a total air/space concept for the future.  

Just because you cant operate it in a tactical sense w/o air supremacy doesnt mean it is not a VALUABLE strategic asset.

I think with upgrades the 52 will in fact fly another 50 years.  Its funny to think they the USAF is doing a "mid-life" upgrade on planes built in the 60s but the frames are solid and proven.

[ravells]

Originally posted by B17Skull12
yeah pretty much.

And THAT's why AH2 is so much fun!

Ravs

[Cobra412]

Money is the major issue here.  Raptor has been in design for alot of years now.  Had they spent the same time and money in just upgrades they may not have had a Raptor per say but the packages on the 30+ year old platforms would have been highly advanced.  The major issue isn't the airframes avionics as they can be upgraded with some time and effort it's the airframes themselves that are an issue.  

Look at the F-15 Active for example.  Fly by wire system with canards and direct link to thrust vectoring for the flight controls and a full glass cockpit.  This is an old F-15B we are talking about here.  Add Avionics upgrades and you've got yourself a fighter to contend with.  But Stealth is the big issue these days and so is the extreme maneuverability.  Stealth you can't gain by using this old of a design but maneuverability is there and it's got a missing avionics package which could very easily be upgraded.

ECM is a major player when using older less stealth aircraft too.  With upgraded ECM you could probably fix the whole stealth issue to an extent.  You have to be able to track what you wanna kill.  If you can't track it then there is no reason it can't be used even with less than total air superiority.  Onboard lasers that have the ability to do what the ABL is trying to do now could also help.  Granted that technology would most likely not be able to fit in a fighter in todays day and age.  But over time the older larger birds could use them as an Electronic Warfar package.  No need for chaff and flare, just a wicked ECM package.  I doubt will see that in our lifetime though.  Still a good ECM package could help less stealthy aircraft to survive long enough to get the kills they need and return home safely.
   
The military is looking at doing more with less and less possibility of taking casualties while doing it.  I think this is why using the Raptor is such a big deal.  The F-15 isn't going anywhere soon, it just wont' be the best of the best as it's been labeled in the past.  Plus I doubt the military will acknowledge that the last 12 years of developement/costs were a waste of time because we can do new stuff with older airframes to make them better.  In the end they would  have to justify the steep price tag on the Raptor and the price tag that they've spent over the years to develop it. I'm not saying the Raptor isn't light years ahead of the F-15 in technology in many ways but if they want it they have to justify why they want it and something has to be the scapegoat and the Eagle is in the position to fill that request.  

It's no different than what many of us tell our wives or girlfriends when we want a computer upgrade.  Honey it won't work now because I need this or it's broke. Guess what...we get it most of the time do we not?

[Lizking]

Just a clarification:

The B-52 could NEVER operate over a battlefield unless we held air supremacy.  The nuclear, low level, Doctor Strangelove scenario would have worked only if we had already taken out air defense networks, thus providing AS.

[storch]

Originally posted by Shuckins
The F-15 first went into production when I was 19.  I am now 50.

Thirty-one years as our front-line fighter is enough.  It no longer represents cutting-edge technology.  The design of the F-14 is even older.

It is time for an upgrade.  From what I have read of it's capabilities, the F-18 "Super Hornet" is not an upgrade.

We cannot maintain our supremacy without spending the money.

That is 100% correct

[Cobra412]

I'm actually curious but exactly how do you know it doesn't having cutting edge technology?  Ever even worked one?  Or do you only go by internet data and civilian published books?  Not being a jerked but asking a legit question when it comes to the F-15 and it's capabilities.

[Vulcan]

Even the latest Sukhoi's are gonna be pwned by RPVs piloted by AH2 trained La7-HO-Dweebs

(how do you say "GD HO Dweeb rammed me!" in Indian?)

[Chairboy]

Here ya go:

"YAAARRRRGH!"

[TequilaChaser]

I myself haven't kept up with the armed forces air power since I left the navy in 88, but last I recall a F-14 was still the fastest fighter jet, and had the capability of locking on to 7+ simultaneous targets by way of the Hawkeye radar, I don't think of this as being out dated. but then again I haven't kept up with technology in this field. I btw have worked on Military aircraft, Navy, was taught on A-4s A-7's and F4J's and then worked on F14's S3A's  and F18's Jetmech/ AD  except some metalsmithing/airframe/corrosion control while TAD.
Also got the proud joy of being on the first S3-A/S3-B nuclear weapons team when they was testing capabilitys and then later started the S3A to S3B conversion

I spent to sea tours on the Nimitz and 1 on the Roosevelt.  The Roosevelt sucked btw peace of junk

[Chairboy]

Not the fastest.  The F-15 can do Mach 2.5, F-14 can do Mach 1.88.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-14.htm
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-15.htm

[Yeager]

DISARM AS A TOKEN OF GOODWILL TO THE WORLD!!!!

maybe then they will stop being mean to us........

[Gunslinger]

Originally posted by Lizking
Just a clarification:

The B-52 could NEVER operate over a battlefield unless we held air supremacy.  The nuclear, low level, Doctor Strangelove scenario would have worked only if we had already taken out air defense networks, thus providing AS.

not as a stand alone weapon.

But when you include the "total package" it isnt even close to being outdated.

by "total package" I mean fighter sweeps, anti RADAR patrols, hawkeyes, ect.

you cant just look at one weapon system without looking at it's integration w/ the bigger picture.

the B2 can drop 80 JDAMS on 80 independently GPS targets simultaniously.  That is FIREPOWER and its stealth.  It is far superior to the 52.  BUT, we have far more 52s AND they have a greater payload....again the AIRFRAME is sound and YES it is upgradable.  

mix a couple of strike eagels w/ some F16s and a hawkeye and an elint bird and a couple of B2/F117 strikes followed with some 52s/B-1Bs with a ground package and you have a formidable force.  

I dont think any other airforce in the world can match that

add the F22 for Fighter cover and you cant beat it.

[Raptor]

Originally posted by Yeager
DISARM AS A TOKEN OF GOODWILL TO THE WORLD!!!!

maybe then they will stop being mean to us........

no.. then they will go "HEY.. NOWS OUR CHANCE! IF THE WHOLE WORLD COMES TOGETHER NOW WE ACTUALLY HAVE A CHANCE AGAINST THE US!"