Author Topic: The USA  (Read 8239 times)

storch

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The USA
« Reply #150 on: July 10, 2004, 06:09:01 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Chairboy
So....  as an atheist, I can't be a proud american?

The USA is about a lot more then your god.


Atheist eh?  actually that is very disingenuos.  you believe in  some form of a god.  perhaps you are too lazy to invest deep thought on the subject or are intellectually dishonest.  The choice is between two gods. That choice is God the creator or god the adversary.  No choice is still a choice.

But you only have this lifetime to decide.  If not then breakout the asbestos underware.  Eternity is a lonnnnnnnnnnnng time.

Everything in nature points to intelligent design.

Offline Naso

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« Reply #151 on: July 10, 2004, 06:17:44 AM »
I am Hyperproductive this morning :)

The comment about the commonground regarding values between Europe and USA, has ringed a bell in my mind.

USA it's Europe's dream.

Wait!! wait!!

Dont jump on your chair, let me explain. :)

In a dark Europe, where a new set of moral values were evolving, many strong powers were fighting the hard way to keep the status quo, the people enbracing theese newborn values was pushing, even fighting to change society, many of this try ended in bloodbaths.

Meanwhile, some of this "new" people, decided to move in a land where those powers were weaker, a land where with less effort, a new society cut have been founded from scratch.

The birdth of USA has been a dream coming true, for many of the people that remained, in some way, to keep the "bad" powers busy at home.

Since then, USA has become the land of the dream, where the tired fighter would have found his rest, europe has continued to give his contribute in fresh blood, new dreamers, to keep the dream going.

Europe is like the father, that has kept to put his hands in the dirt work, working hard and suffering, to give his child, the USA, a better tomorrow.

Dont give up, keep the dream going, dont go thru the same mistakes that we have made.

You owe us this.

And dont believe that you have nothing more to learn from your old dad.

:)





I am lyric today. :D

storch

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The USA
« Reply #152 on: July 10, 2004, 07:09:53 AM »
Americans came to be a people not because we come from European values but because we were fleeing European values.

At least the Americans that originated from England declared that as reason for leaving England.  Those people left England looking for religious freedom.  They planted the seeds for the freedom we still enjoy today.

The following Document is the actual basis of our Great Constitution which was written 166 years later.

The Mayflower compact.

"In the name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord, King James, by the Grace of God, of England, France and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith, e&. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise all due submission and obedience. In Witness whereof we have hereunto subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the Reign of our Sovereign Lord, King James of England, France and Ireland, the eighteenth, and of Scotland the fifty-fourth. Anno Domini, 1620."

"There followed the signatures of 41 of the 102 passengers, 37 of whom were Separatists fleeing religious persecution in Europe. This compact established the first basis in the new world for written laws. Half of the colony failed to survive the first winter, but the remainder lived on and prospered."

And prosper they did indeed.

In fact America epitomizes all that is good and decent in humanity.  America and the American way are man's best and brightest hope for a just future for any person on earth.

There is no better form of government.

This fact manifests itself in the pride you euros mock and do not comprehend.

demaw1 is correct in stating that we are currently involved in a war for our culture.  Perhaps even a civil war, hopefully to be fought in the courts.

The liberals in America are literally hell bent in undoing 376 years of the most successful experiment in human liberty in all of mankind's history.

Without God there can be no America,  Without America there is still God.

Liberal friends consider our history.  If you cannot see a direct correlation with your actions in removing and prohibiting all mention of the Almighty from our public institutions in the past 50 years to our current social problems then you are truly blind.

The Ten Commandments which are the pardigm for our legal and judicial system are systematically being removed from schools and court houses.

We want to save whales, owls, termites and crabs but the mother's womb is unsafest place for a baby to be.

We can mention any god in schools.  I've read that islam is being taught in California's public schools but the mention of Jesus' name is cause for suspension.

We have shameless groups of homosexuals who march throughout our streets celebrating their folly and expect us to not only accept their lifestyle choice but to embrace it as normal.

Yes indeed we are in a fight and IMHO a historically important one.

The separation of Church and State does not, did not ever mean the separation of God from our national identity.  It meant that the government could not institute a National religion such as the Church of England as an example. I pray that God does not abandon us.  If he were to we need only look at the fossil record around the southern shore of the dead sea in the Holy Land to find evidence of what could happen.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 07:15:12 AM by storch »

Offline Bluedog

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« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2004, 07:27:51 AM »
You make some very good points Naso, and some I had never taken into consideration before.
Thanks for posting them, food for thought indeed.

Offline Dago

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« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2004, 09:19:59 AM »
Beetle,

What I meant by "we have everything here we need" is a reference to the need to travel.

We have beautiful mountains with fantastic skiing.  We have glorious sandy beaches on the ocean with warm weather year around.  

We have the Grand Canyon, considered one the the seven wonders of the natural world.  We have the northern lights, an amazing visual experience you can view so clearly in Alaska, and Alaska in itself is one of the most amazing places on earth for natural beauty.

You ever see a wheatfield that covers the horizon gently waving in a summer breeze?  We have that too.

We have deserts with the plant and animal life only found in deserts.  We have ghost towns that tell a story of early pioneer life, and we have preserved battlefields that tell of our early history for independance and our civil war.  With that go the areas of historical significance to our nations history, such as Williamsburg VA, Concord and Lexington, Jamestown, Plymouth Rock,  etc.

An amazing sight can be seen by heading toward the Dakotas and taking in Mount Rushmore.  A visit to New York can show you the best and worst of a big city.

You can visit Chicago or Memphis to hear the greatest blues players in the world.

In Detroit, a person can watch the largest car makes in the world build cars.  In Seatte, a person can watch the assembly of the B747 aircraft, the largest currently operated civilian aircraft.

We have thousands of museums, sports complexes, and national parks protecting and making available to the public some of the most beautiful works of nature (think Yellowstone etc).

In the USA you can hunt for small and large game, you can fish for great tasting walleye or large Marlin.  

You can learn to fly aircraft or to race cars.  You can attend races of motorcycles, cars, airplanes etc.

We have the Oshkosh airshow, the Reno airraces, hot air balloon festivals, and a couple space centers that you can visit.

We have the best health care system in the world, including Johns Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic Hospital complexes.

I could go on, but let me say how sad I find it that you have lived here and yet all you choose to see were Walmart and McDonalds etc.  You missed so much.

dago
"Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"

Offline Simaril

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« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2004, 10:06:59 AM »
I think part of beetle's point, if I may be so bold as to speak for him, is that there is SO MUCH of value elsewhere -- and most americans dont appreciate the fact. We have great museums and cultural resources, but we've only been around 200+ years. You can't see the Tower of London, with Roman walls nearby, in the new world. We have much to see; we don't have the Colisseum, the Louvre, Notre Dame, the Vatican art museum, Venice, and so on.

At the same time, we don't have Buchenwald.
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #156 on: July 10, 2004, 10:25:54 AM »
As an American who spends lots of time overseas living with other cultures, I can say WE are big cultural snobs.

Americans tend to think that everyone is secretly a little american waiting to come out.  In fact that is not true.  Most people around the world are put off by this attiude.

You can see it at any Airport or Hotel overseas.  Just listen for the American speaking English and raising his voice when the taxi driver does not understand him.  What's the Joke?  If a man speaks 3 languages he is trilingual. If he speaks 2 then he is bilingual.  Only ONE, He's an American.

At the same time, Patriotism has traditionally been an American Cultural value.  Just remember Europeans, MUCH of our culture is based on yours, with one big exception.  Too Americans patriotism = Freedom and Justice for All NOT cultural superiority.  

We already practice that!   :)

Crumpp

Offline Chairboy

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« Reply #157 on: July 10, 2004, 10:32:19 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Atheist eh?  actually that is very disingenuos.  you believe in  some form of a god.  perhaps you are too lazy to invest deep thought on the subject or are intellectually dishonest.  The choice is between two gods. That choice is God the creator or god the adversary.  No choice is still a choice.


Actually, no.  I don't believe that there is any god or supreme being that has created the universe by design.  I've read the christian bible, studied other religious texts, and given it some serious thought and come to the conclusion that religion fills the psychological need many people have to have someone else be in control, like when they were children and their parents were ultimately responsible for their actions.

So, no.  Your assertion that being atheist means I 'just haven't thought about it' is both insulting, poorly thought out, and evidence that you may cling to your beliefs like a safety blanket without any comprehension as to the possibility of something else.

Let this be the end of this conversation, there's no good reason to hijack this thread about national pride with a fruitless argument about religion.  Neither of us is going to change the others mind, so it's only logical that we respect that we each have differing viewpoints and just live with it.  If you REALLY want to keep talking about this, start a new thread so this one doesn't degenerate.
"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Offline lada

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« Reply #158 on: July 10, 2004, 10:35:51 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch


Without God there can be no America,  Without America there is still God.


It looks like US  is theocratic country.

Am i correct ?

edit: hey crumpp nice post thanks :)
« Last Edit: July 10, 2004, 10:46:15 AM by lada »

Offline SunKing

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« Reply #159 on: July 10, 2004, 10:36:37 AM »
... alot of jealous people abound.

Offline lada

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« Reply #160 on: July 10, 2004, 11:02:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Naso


In a dark Europe, where a new set of moral values were evolving, many strong powers were fighting the hard way to keep the status quo, the people enbracing theese newborn values was pushing, even fighting to change society, many of this try ended in bloodbaths.
 


well true problems in europe were Church
They had power for looong time and it were  more and more clear, that they are loosing it. Their morale went down, corruption were pretty high and most of them abused word "God" in eyes of other.
I can imagine, that average people were interesting in living somewhere else.

But some time has pass away and its kinda funny that religion in europe doesnt have as big influence on people, goverments as it have in US. Its kinda funny.

Every little children in europe know, that most people in human history did die in name of God. Even Stallin or Hitler are pure suckers at kills compare to various  Churches in europe.


"freedom is gift given by god to all human beeing" or something like that GWB said, before he entered Iraq...... So whats the score ?
Ahhhh... 25000 death people in iraq  in name of "freedom by God" ...  damm im still wondering that they do not eat that
:rolleyes:

Offline X2Lee

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« Reply #161 on: July 10, 2004, 11:18:33 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by storch
Americans came to be a people not because we come from European values but because we were fleeing European values.

At least the Americans that originated from England declared that as reason for leaving England.  Those people left England looking for  


Would you knock it off Storch? I am still trying to not like you  ;)

Offline Slash27

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« Reply #162 on: July 10, 2004, 11:28:26 AM »
if I may be so bold as to speak for him, is that there is SO MUCH of value elsewhere -- and most americans dont appreciate the fact.  oh bull****





"freedom is gift given by god to all human beeing" or something like that GWB said, before he entered Iraq...... So whats the score ?   what?

Offline Dago

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« Reply #163 on: July 10, 2004, 11:42:13 AM »
Crump,

I have also lived overseas, I have been to many countries in Europe, Asia, the Middle East and I have been to Africa.

I just think that America has enough to offer that a peson could spend a lifetime of their vacations just seeing this nation.  My posts in this thread have been in response to first, a condescending remark that most Americans haven't been to another country, and second, that there isn't much to see here other than urban sprawl.

Both ridiculous post that needed a response.  Fact is, most people in this world will never travel more than 25 miles from where they grew up, let alone to differant countries.  While some Europeans may jump among the litte countries of Europe and consider themselves "worldly",  they aren't going any farther than when an American goes on vacation in his own country.

I would wager than the majority of Europeans dont travel more than a few hundred miles away in thier lives.

When an American travels to another country, he/she has taken a much longer trip.  And again, if I had to wager, I would bet more Americans on vacation see distant lands than the average European.   My experience sure indicates that.  When in Bejing, I saw a lot of Americans touring, and just a few Europeans.  Same of Malaysia, same of Rome, etc etc etc.

And poor Beetle with his blinders missed so much of our country while he shopped at Walmart and ate his fast food.   Course, he probably became familiar with our bars and liquor stores.

No, Americans are not anymore snobby than Europeans, and probably less so.  Reading this whole thread reflects that statement.

dago
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Offline Crumpp

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« Reply #164 on: July 10, 2004, 12:23:32 PM »
Dago,

I agree with 90 percent of your post except for :

Quote
No, Americans are not anymore snobby than Europeans, and probably less so. Reading this whole thread reflects that statement.


I have family that still lives in Europe.  It's my opinion that the average European is more "culturally aware" than American's simply because they do live within easy travel of other countries.  Granted many of these "cultures" are very similar but they do all in fact have thier differences.  French do not think that the British are French waiting to come out.  We tend to think everyone should adopt our way of doing things.

Let me cite an example:

One time in the Philipines the group I was with hiked 75 km's through the Jungle on Luzon.  When we got to our destination we stayed with a Philipino family.  It was the only dwelling for miles and a 5 day hike to the nearest market.  It was a stick hut with a thatched roof and a mud floor.  The man's entire family lived their with 9 children in two rooms.  The only metal objects they owned were a matchete, a small Short-wave reciever, and a plow blade for their water buffalo.

Immediately upon our arrival the man sent his sons into the jungle to fetch some dinner and his wife to cooking.  He broke out 3 cans of meat, 1 of potted meat, 1 of sardines, and 1 of mackeral.  With vegetables collected from the jungle, rice, and meat, his wife cooked us a meal.  I wonder how many Americans would have turned their noses up at that meal?  If you think about the fact each one of those can's represented a weeks salary and a 10 day round trip, It was feast.

Or how about later on during that trip I was invited to another Philipino's house.  When I arrived his grandfather announced a celebration.  See he fought as a Guerilla against the Japanese and wanted to honor Americans.  A fire was built and dog was killed, dressed, and barbequed on the coals.  We drank beer and balut, rice, and dogmeat.

 http://cooking.houseonahill.net/index.php/food/recipe/balut/

You see the man sent his son to the market to get the very best for his guest.  The Dog is not a "pet" dog but is raised on a farm specifically for eating.  It is delicacy to them and he was laying out the red carpet.  Most Americans would have jumped up and ran out of the room if you served them duck embryo's and dogmeat.  AND of course Immediately attacked the man who was trying to honor them, letting him know just how screwed up he was for eating those things.

Here is a good one.  How many times have you heard an American look at an Asian toliet and go "MY GOD!  They squat over a hole in the ground!".  

Well an Asian looks at European tiolet and thinks, "How dirty can you get!  They actually TOUCH the place they crap in!"

Just because it is different does not mean it is bad.

WE tend to view cultural differences as "bad".  Now some of them really are IMO.  I am not a fan of the Middle Eastern practice of homosexuality before marriage.  Especially when it is practiced with underage boys nor of the condemnation of Alcohol but an acceptance of Hash?

Crumpp