Author Topic: Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?  (Read 2242 times)

Offline Halo

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« on: July 09, 2004, 08:17:19 PM »
While browsing the web for info on the latest Combat Theater matchups, found a source saying that although the first La-7s were produced with three 20mm cannon, most later La-7s had only two 20-mm cannon like the La-5.

The source said 368 early La-7s had three 20mm cannon and 3,000 later La-7s had two 20mm cannon.

If true, this would make the present Aces High La-7 much like the small number of F4U-1C with four 20mm cannon and larger number of F4U-1D with six 50-cal. machinguns --  i.e., the limited production three-cannon La-7 ought to be perked, probably same amount as the four-cannon F4U-1C.

This would mean adding a two-cannon La-7.  Shouldn't be too difficult, right?

P.S.  In the Main Arena I am against perking any planes and I want exterior views for all aircraft, but as long as the present perk system exists, it would make sense to add a two-cannon La-7 with no perk points and perk the present three-cannon La-7.

Sources is http://pioneeraero.co.nz/lavochkin_la-7.htm.  You may have to search with Google or just go to the pioneeraero home page, look for Lavochkin history on the left, then La-7.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2004, 08:28:55 PM by Halo »
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Offline Karnak

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2004, 08:42:17 PM »
Our La-7 has the option of two or three cannon.
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Offline Innominate

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2004, 08:46:40 PM »
There were only about 400 n1k2's built...

Offline Halo

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2004, 09:04:41 PM »
Good point, Karnak.  So maybe should be only two-cannon La-7 with the three-cannon La-7 perked?  

Good point Innominate.  Also not many C-205s built.  Probably C-205 should be perked too even though it isn't flown that much.  

(Again, my usual disclaimer:  In Main Arena, I'd like to see everything unperked and exterior views for all aircraft.  Combat Theater, IMO, is the place for limited aircraft selection and limited interior viewing.)
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Offline Delirium

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2004, 07:05:42 AM »
You have to be kidding!

Boy, I'm glad you're not in charge, we'd end up seeing enough Tempest and 262s to last me until the end of my days. Please tell me you were just making a joke...

Quote
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Combat Theater, IMO, is the place for limited aircraft selection and limited interior viewing.)
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Offline straffo

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2004, 07:17:56 AM »
Unperk the Tempest , the spit XIV and add the Yak3.

Offline Tilt

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2004, 06:05:26 PM »
Whilst the development model of the La7 always planned it to have 3 x b20 cannon the gun was unreliable and the B20 was not adopted until the Tblisi plant la7's were made with it from late Jan 45 onwards...........

So infact the relatively fewer 3 cannon La7's were late production machines not early ones............

If perks are ever seriously considereed for the La7 I would think splitting the type this way would bring the desired effect...........

The icon lable could then be changed to " Lav" for all the Lavochkins.

I believe a nice skin has already been made for such a three cannon version.
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Offline Zazen13

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2004, 02:38:50 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Whilst the development model of the La7 always planned it to have 3 x b20 cannon the gun was unreliable and the B20 was not adopted until the Tblisi plant la7's were made with it from late Jan 45 onwards...........

So infact the relatively fewer 3 cannon La7's were late production machines not early ones............

If perks are ever seriously considereed for the La7 I would think splitting the type this way would bring the desired effect...........

The icon lable could then be changed to " Lav" for all the Lavochkins.

I believe a nice skin has already been made for such a three cannon version.


I hope it's the LGay7 skin I submitted, it's gay pride purple with a big flamboyant rainbow across the fuselage. I think most flyers of the LGay7 would be honored to fly with that skin as a proud symbol of their 'alternative' lifestyle.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2004, 10:37:32 AM by Zazen13 »
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Offline straffo

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2004, 06:09:12 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Zazen13
I hope it's LGay7 the skin I submitted, it's gay pride purple with a big flamboyant rainbow across the fuselage. I think most flyers of the LGay7 would be honored to fly with that skin as a proud symbol of their 'alternative' lifestyle.


What is your problem with the gay ?

IMO a P51 fan can't do any critic of the LA7 especially because this plane has been made for alt-monkey cheery picker incompetent "pilots".

Offline Urchin

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2004, 09:33:16 AM »
I think it is mostly because the runstang can choose to run OR fight, not both.  It is good at either, but once you actually start fighting, you are wide open to being bounced by the inevitable nik/spit gang a few miles behind the initial wave of runstang/elgays.  

The La-7 on the other hand, can bore n zoom with impunity, chase down any plane in the game and fight with a significant advantage, and if the pilot is still to incompetent to win, can turn on auto-level and be doing 350 mph 30 seconds after he decides to run.  

There isn't another plane in the game that is all strengths and no weaknesses that isn't perked.  In fact, even the F4U-4, Spit 14, and Ta-152 are significantly inferior to the La-7 "overall", and they are perked.

Offline straffo

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2004, 09:49:54 AM »
Don't ruin my attempt to put some virtual pepper spray on Zazen nose :)


I agree mostly with you but you forgot to say that D9 G10 P51D Typhoon are free and can counter the La7 easily.

Offline Urchin

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2004, 10:19:29 AM »
That simply isn't true.  

The D-9 can't quite run an La-7 down, and even if it could it'd be dogmeat because the La-7 literally does everything better.  The La-7 turns better, accelerates faster, climbs better, handles better, and has more firepower.  A D-9 that "runs down" an La-7 better be ready for the fight of its life, because an average La-7 pilot with basic knowledge of the two planes will hand a "expert" D-9 pilot his ass.  For what it is worth, the D-9 rolls better, although I fail to see that as a significant advantage.

The 109G-10 is like an La-7 "lite".  It accelerates almost as well, climbs about as well, turns almost as well, rolls almost as well, handles almost as well.  It is significantly slower, which means it has almost no chance to run an La-7 down, and it doesn't have the firepower to spray at a fleeing La-7, although it will hang back in theoretical "firing range" for a while.  A "turn-fight" between an La-7 and a 109-G10 is just about even, although the La-7 can leave whenever it wants to and the G-10 will never catch up again.

The Typhoon is like a Dora, except it accelerates better, climbs worse, turns better, and rolls worse.  This means that the La-7 is faster, turns better, accelerates better, climbs better, and rolls faster than the Typhoon.  Although the Tiffie packs some serious firepower, it had better land that shot to kill the La-7 it is chasing if that La-7 decides he is going to force the issue, because once the fight starts it is decided advantage, la-7.  Plus, again, the La-7 can leave a fight once it starts at any time it wants to, because it has a decided acceleration advantage and a marginal top speed advantage.  A fleeing La-7 is in a lot more danger from a Tiffie spraying 600-800 yards off its 6 than it is from a G-10, but the Tiffie will never close the distance again.

The P-51 is actually the fast plane that is least like the La-7, in my opinion.  The 190D-9, 109G-10, and Typhoon can all be looked at as "failed La-7s", in that the La-7 does everything they do, except better (with the exception of packing Hizookas).  The P-51D is a little different, in that it has a decided advantage over the previous 3 (and the La-7) in the low speed "fighting" department.  Around 180-200 mph, a La-7, 109/190, or Typhoon with a P-51D on its bellybutton is in serious trouble.  Unless they can force the P-51 to miss that one shot it just bled all that energy off for.  Then the P-51 is in serious trouble, because the Pony's one serious flaw is it accelerates like crap compared to the rest of the late-war speed demons.  So once you get a P-51 down to 150 mph, and you are in a 109/190/la7/typhoon, you can accelerate for about 30 seconds and build up an energy advantage, then switch over from angles tactics to energy tactics.  The P-51 is screwed in that case, because it won't be able to generate enough energy to get back on an even footing with you.

As the La-7 is the best turning "fast plane", the P-51 doesn't have much of a margin of an advantage over it in the manueverability department.  From about 150-200 mph the P-51 will turn better because of its flaps, but if that happens the La-7 can relax its turning to build up some energy, then get above the P-51 and kill it with impunity.  A P-51 that decides to chase down an La-7 better either be very cautious (in which case the La-7 waits till the P-51 zoooooooms, then takes off running again, building up a larger and larger seperation between "passes"), or very aggressive.  If he is very aggressive, he better hit that shot, or the La-7 will turn the tables on him, or (more likely in the MA) realize he has gotten the P-51 slow so he can take off running again and not get caught this time.

That'd be my analysis of the relative strengths anyway.  Nothing new there, btw.

Offline Zazen13

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2004, 10:39:45 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Urchin
I think it is mostly because the runstang can choose to run OR fight, not both.  It is good at either, but once you actually start fighting, you are wide open to being bounced by the inevitable nik/spit gang a few miles behind the initial wave of runstang/elgays.  

The La-7 on the other hand, can bore n zoom with impunity, chase down any plane in the game and fight with a significant advantage, and if the pilot is still to incompetent to win, can turn on auto-level and be doing 350 mph 30 seconds after he decides to run.  

There isn't another plane in the game that is all strengths and no weaknesses that isn't perked.  In fact, even the F4U-4, Spit 14, and Ta-152 are significantly inferior to the La-7 "overall", and they are perked.


Exactly correct Urchin. There is also the ultimate lameness of the LGay7 pilot who attempts to HO at low altitude, where evasive options are minimal extends 3k'ish then revs for another HO attempt, never actually fighting, just hoping to get lucky on a HO attempt eventually.
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Offline Tilt

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #13 on: July 12, 2004, 05:05:30 AM »
I think it was Easyscores 3 cannon skin.......... Yellow 09 in dark olive camo.

I would agree with Urchins analysis below 10 k (where most stuff ends up) and the La7 is "useful" upto 15K but becomes out matched by several ac at these alts.

Actually as a gun platform (combination of  stability/control authority and fire power) its not upto to the other 3 of the "big 4" and even more so when in the two cannon version. Hence spliting the two versions would IMO be valid especially as the 3 cannon version is a late war 1945 ac.

Its ability to break off and escape is obviously very annoying to those "experten" who think that the only form of ACM is close quarter stall fighting................. tough.

It may be the AC of choice for pilots who simply zoom and extend, zoom and extend (at low level)without any thought to angle however this tactic in my experience is most commonly the one adopted by P51's and FW's at higher alts.

As for HO's.....it still takes two even if one of the pair is less concerned about the out come than the other.

Whilst the AC may lend its self to this form of attack it is the player that has adopted it...

In dive several other ac will pull away from it (including the P51 and G10) and the P51 will bottom out from its dive with better control authority and less e loss (as will all the FW's) Hence from say 10k and a co e state the 51 can run if it so wishes as can the D9.

On the deck no unperked plane can run from an La7 if they start co e.
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Offline Urchin

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Perk 3-Gun La-7, Add 2-Gun La-7?
« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2004, 07:05:15 AM »
About the firepower.. I'd rate the La-7 as better than the P-51 for fighting, but worse for bore n zoom.

By the way...  "the only form of ACM is close quarter stall fighting".

Cherrypicking..  Not ACM.  

Running like a girl to friends or ack... Not ACM.  


Is it a "tactic".. sure.. I guess.  If you use the word loosely.  Air COMBAT Manuevering
Sorry.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2004, 07:08:24 AM by Urchin »