Author Topic: Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)  (Read 3467 times)

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #75 on: July 21, 2004, 07:31:40 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
And that's the difference between this game and reality.  We are here to fight, both the a2a crowd and the stratters, while the ideal in reality is no fighting or killing or dying.  That's another reason why the strat game in AH cannot and should not be judged on realism.  A strat model that encourages smart fighting in the real sense--which means no fighting and take them out while they're on the ground or in the garage--is a bad strat model for the online game Aces High.


Referances were allready made to the fact that this was a game and the changes were probably because of that, and that was accepted.  valued points but allready covered...


Offline phookat

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #76 on: July 21, 2004, 07:35:56 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JRCrow
poster, ackstarring and Grimm brothers.

I am not familiar with these terms, help me out.


Poster = RDRtrash, the other poster.

Ackstarring is a reference to the Death Star.  Big object that you place in the middle of a big fight, and it automatically kills everything in sight.  The use of bombers as you describe is sometimes referred to as ackstarring, since you are relying on robot acks.

The Grimm brothers were the authors (or compilers) of a large number of famous fairy tales. :)

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #77 on: July 21, 2004, 08:54:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
Poster = RDRtrash, the other poster.

Ackstarring is a reference to the Death Star.  Big object that you place in the middle of a big fight, and it automatically kills everything in sight.  The use of bombers as you describe is sometimes referred to as ackstarring, since you are relying on robot acks.

The Grimm brothers were the authors (or compilers) of a large number of famous fairy tales. :)


  Still does not quite make sense, seems almost like a poke, but I will take it as not.  why the poster referance? why not just use his name?  I hope your not trying to just start smack again.

  Ackstarring does not apply to bombers at all, so I am still at a bit of a loss as to what you are trying to convey.  Bomber guns are manned and do not automatically kill everything in sight.  Now field and city ack is a differant story.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2004, 09:03:47 PM by JRCrow »

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #78 on: July 21, 2004, 09:08:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
Why is that a problem?



I thought I said hitting the fuel has this effect :confused: ,

Not sure if you are pro or agasint?

Offline phookat

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #79 on: July 21, 2004, 10:27:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JRCrow
I thought I said hitting the fuel has this effect :confused: ,

Not sure if you are pro or agasint?


What I mean is, why is it a problem that offensive operations have become more difficult?

Offline phookat

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #80 on: July 21, 2004, 10:34:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by JRCrow
Ackstarring does not apply to bombers at all, so I am still at a bit of a loss as to what you are trying to convey.


'k, here's what I'm trying to say.  The orig poster (rdrtrash) says the way you deal with fuel porking is by using bombers, and that this is realistic.  I'm trying to understand what he meant by that.

If he means taking off in a bomber and circling the field taking out all the vultchers, then that is ackstarring if you are using the robot gunners.  If you're using a manned gunner, then I guess it isn't exactly ackstarring.  In either case, it  is completely unrealistic and does not justify the inclusion of fuel porking.

Offline mjj09

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #81 on: July 21, 2004, 10:37:20 PM »
What is wrong with all of you people. Every single war ever frought depended on supplies. You capture or destroy the enemies supplies, they are unable to fight. If we find a stockpile of weapons in Iraq, do you think we go and give it back to the 'terrorists' :rolleyes: so they can keep on fighting?

Well that is exactly what they did with the fuel ingame.

Offline phookat

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #82 on: July 21, 2004, 10:54:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mjj09
What is wrong with all of you people. Every single war ever frought depended on supplies. You capture or destroy the enemies supplies, they are unable to fight. If we find a stockpile of weapons in Iraq, do you think we go and give it back to the 'terrorists' :rolleyes: so they can keep on fighting?

Well that is exactly what they did with the fuel ingame.


This is not a real war.  It will never be a real war.  It is a game.  Strategic elements  therefore have to be handled differently from a real war, otherwise the purpose of the game is defeated.

Offline mjj09

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #83 on: July 21, 2004, 11:11:55 PM »
AH is suppose to get it as real as possible. This is suppose to be simulating air combat during WW2. I'm sorry to inform you, but the allies bombed the hell outta German factories and cities which lead to them being defeated (that and they were out numbered and a few other things).

Now since this is a 'game' some things have to be changed. Such as:

1.) Once you die you can 'come back'
2.) Adjustable settings
3.) Smoke...?
4.) Everything destroyed at a base is restored within a few hours instead of a few DAYS, WEEKS, and/or MONTHS
5.) Bases do not have to be supplied with ammo and fuel on a daily basis or in AH's case, every few hours.
6.) Little tiny icons over planes heads to help to ID fiendly and enemy

just to name a few. There are probably a few small other things that have to be changed for the 'game' part of AH, but everything else should remain as real as possible. This is a simulator, not a fantasy game.

Offline mars01

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #84 on: July 22, 2004, 12:17:55 AM »
The bottom line and what phookat has so elagantly pointed out, is that the whole point of this game is to pit one side against the other and let their actions determine the outcome.

I.e.  If TOD is going to be cool, there will be an AI that controls the whole arena and that AI creates orders for each country.  Probably should only be two countries.  

Missions are posted on the msision board, by the AI, for each countries officer pool. (People who rise to the rank of officers = Officer Pool )  

An officer selects a mission and selects his squad members.  If he can not fill the squad or number of people needed, then replacenments are selected by the AI from the non officers pools.
( Privates etc waiting for orders to report to a squad = Non Officer Pool).  

If an officer does not want a private or the private is a trouble maker and doesn't follow the orders (Waypoints, wingman tactics etc), thus affecting the rank of the officer, the officer can ask for another replacement.  This will make people follow the orders if they want to fly.

So say the AI cuts orders for a Bomber Mission and an Escort for one country and it cuts orders for a CAP or intercept mission for the other country.  

The point here is for the AI to give coordinates and waypoints so that both forces will definately collied and the action that ensues will affect the outcome of the battle, which will affect therank of each person, their score and the overall momentum of the war.  

The missions are based on the over all numbers of people in each country and the officers and privates available to run missions.  If there are not enough officers, then certain privates who azre doing well are promoted.  If they select a decent mission and do well it will help increase their rank and possibly make the promotion permanent.  And on and on this can go.

This will allow them to even out  the numbers and create streams of nonstop action.  The ranking system forces people to follow orders.  If you lose your rank of an officer then you go back to the private pool.  If you are a private and don't follow the orders then officers wont want to select them and they don't fly.  

The long winded point is that unlike real life, as phookat points out, where the action is avaoided unless completely necessary because it has dire consequences, AH should always guarantee that the action will exists and AH should do nothing to stunt or promote scenarios where actions are limited or stop people from being able to fight.

Much like real life, Fuel porking stops the fight, it stops the action and kills the game play.  It's affects are counter productive to allowing the actions of the fight to affect the outcome of the war.  A base should be taken when two forces fought over it and one succeeded as the victor, not because one side stopped the other side from showing up.

The enemy is stopped by superior action not by taking away one sides ability to rise to action.

Quote
AH is suppose to be simulating air combat during WW2. I'm sorry to inform you, but the allies bombed the hell outta German factories and cities which lead to them being defeated
Yeah and you are talking about ending the simulation, and everyone shuts down their computers and goes home.  Not the point of the game.  Fighting is the point of simulating air combat during WW2.  If you pork the fuel the fighting stops and the simulation ends. :aok

Sorry for being so long winded and thanks for following along lolh:D
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:23:05 AM by mars01 »

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #85 on: July 22, 2004, 12:33:27 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by phookat
'k, here's what I'm trying to say.  The orig poster (rdrtrash) says the way you deal with fuel porking is by using bombers, and that this is realistic.  I'm trying to understand what he meant by that.

If he means taking off in a bomber and circling the field taking out all the vultchers, then that is ackstarring if you are using the robot gunners.  If you're using a manned gunner, then I guess it isn't exactly ackstarring.  In either case, it  is completely unrealistic and does not justify the inclusion of fuel porking.



Ok, I see waht you are saying and yes one has nothing to do with the other.  Not sure I have ever seen a bomber used that way.  That woudl be pretty wild to see though  :D

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #86 on: July 22, 2004, 12:44:00 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
The bottom line and what phookat has so elagantly pointed out, is that the whole point of this game is to pit one side against the other and let their actions determine the outcome.

I.e.  If TOD is going to be cool, there will be an AI that controls the whole arena and that AI creates orders for each country.  Probably should only be two countries.  

Missions are posted on the msision board, by the AI, for each countries officer pool. (People who rise to the rank of officers = Officer Pool )  

An officer selects a mission and selects his squad members.  If he can not fill the squad or number of people needed, then replacenments are selected by the AI from the non officers pools.
( Privates etc waiting for orders to report to a squad = Non Officer Pool).  

If an officer does not want a private or the private is a trouble maker and doesn't follow the orders (Waypoints, wingman tactics etc), thus affecting the rank of the officer, the officer can ask for another replacement.  This will make people follow the orders if they want to fly.

So say the AI cuts orders for a Bomber Mission and an Escort for one country and it cuts orders for a CAP or intercept mission for the other country.  

The point here is for the AI to give coordinates and waypoints so that both forces will definately collied and the action that ensues will affect the outcome of the battle, which will affect therank of each person, their score and the overall momentum of the war.  

The missions are based on the over all numbers of people in each country and the officers and privates available to run missions.  If there are not enough officers, then certain privates who azre doing well are promoted.  If they select a decent mission and do well it will help increase their rank and possibly make the promotion permanent.  And on and on this can go.

This will allow them to even out  the numbers and create streams of nonstop action.  The ranking system forces people to follow orders.  If you lose your rank of an officer then you go back to the private pool.  If you are a private and don't follow the orders then officers wont want to select them and they don't fly.  

The long winded point is that unlike real life, as phookat points out, where the action is avaoided unless completely necessary because it has dire consequences, AH should always guarantee that the action will exists and AH should do nothing to stunt or promote scenarios where actions are limited or stop people from being able to fight.

Much like real life, Fuel porking stops the fight, it stops the action and kills the game play.  It's affects are counter productive to allowing the actions of the fight to affect the outcome of the war.  A base should be taken when two forces fought over it and one succeeded as the victor, not because one side stopped the other side from showing up.

The enemy is stopped by superior action not by taking away one sides ability to rise to action.

 Yeah and you are talking about ending the simulation, and everyone shuts down their computers and goes home.  Not the point of the game.  Fighting is the point of simulating air combat during WW2.  If you pork the fuel the fighting stops and the simulation ends. :aok

Sorry for being so long winded and thanks for following along lolh:D



   Its that whole TOD Thing you talked about a conseptual idea of yours?  where did that all come from?

   I disagree with making two parties intersect at a specified point.  I do not think that would be fun at all.  A predetermined point of battle, Naw.  There will be fighting without that, just like there is now.  The fun is outsmarting the enemy half of the time.  Now some people may not like being outwitted but that is part of life really.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:53:28 AM by JRCrow »

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #87 on: July 22, 2004, 12:51:03 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mjj09
AH is suppose to get it as real as possible. This is suppose to be simulating air combat during WW2. I'm sorry to inform you, but the allies bombed the hell outta German factories and cities which lead to them being defeated (that and they were out numbered and a few other things).

Now since this is a 'game' some things have to be changed. Such as:

1.) Once you die you can 'come back'
2.) Adjustable settings
3.) Smoke...?
4.) Everything destroyed at a base is restored within a few hours instead of a few DAYS, WEEKS, and/or MONTHS
5.) Bases do not have to be supplied with ammo and fuel on a daily basis or in AH's case, every few hours.
6.) Little tiny icons over planes heads to help to ID fiendly and enemy

just to name a few. There are probably a few small other things that have to be changed for the 'game' part of AH, but everything else should remain as real as possible. This is a simulator, not a fantasy game.



   I totaly agree with you, but some people have differant thought process and ideas.  Some look at this thing in full scope others look at it like a regular video game.  I personally got addicted to this because of the strategic involvement, I am a bit more Military minded than others.  It is easy for me to get engrossed in an enviroment that combine tactical and strategic consepts like this.  To many systems have one but not the other.

   Thanks for the input  

Offline mars01

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #88 on: July 22, 2004, 12:53:05 AM »
Just ideas that were kicking around in my head.

The would not be specific points where the intersections would occure, but the orders would be such that the probability of the groups finding each other and action ensuing would be high.

The whole aspect of outsmarting the other guy could take this form.  When you rise to a certain rank you can then submit orders to the AI.  You become General lets say.  Now when you log in the AI gives you a battle plan from high command and asks for your best plan of execution.  You submit it and so on and so on.

There are alot of places that this can go and alot of things that can happen.  The main idea tho is to make it so the whole point is the fighting.  There is an aspect of strategery but that is the result of the fighting.  If you are more of a strategy person then you can aspire to the rank of general.  This whole model then allows your strategy to be followed and executed rather than what we have now, which is little in the way of decent military organisation and simulation.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2004, 12:57:10 AM by mars01 »

Offline JRCrow

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Air field Fuel Targets (Porking fuel)
« Reply #89 on: July 22, 2004, 12:57:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by mars01
Just ideas that were kicking around in my head.

The would not be specific points where the intersections would accure, but the orders would be such that the probability of the groups finding each other would be high.

The whole aspect of outsmarting the other guy could take this form.  When you rise to a certain rank you can then submit orders to the AI.  You become General lets say.  Now when you log in the AI gives you a battle plan from high command and asks for your best plan of execution.  You submit it and so on and so on.

There are alot of places that this can go and alot of things that can happen.  The main idea tho is to make it so the whole point is the fighting.  There is an aspect of strategery but that is the result of the fighting.  If you are more of a strategy person then you can aspire to the rank of general.  This whole model then allows your strategy to be followed and executed rather than what we have now, which is little in the way of decent military organisation and simulation.



Wow sounds like a whole new system.  Would need some radical AI.  You don't think the current TOD that we have is good?
I really enjoy it.