You guys just don't get it

[Simaril]

Hate seeing all those La-7s, ponies, Nikis, and Spit IX’s?  Tired of watching unaggressive dweebs run, or unskilled spit pilots drop from high altitudes onto your 6?
Who isn’t?

There’s a very good reason there are so many in the MA, though. It takes a surprising amount of skill to move past these mounts. When I first started AH, I couldn’t stay alive in the Yak I wanted to learn. After a while, I tried the spit with the same results. By my third month, I could do OK in the Pony and the La-7, but it was only after I passed the median – about 1500 fighter rank out of the 3000 or so who get ranks every month – that I successfully moved to a “real” plane. My KPD in the Dora is now somewhat better than the average for that plane, and I’m getting better bit by bit.

Until I reached that point, I couldn’t leave the despised quartet without being a flaming chunk of aluminum. I really believe that’s the main reason we see those dweeb planes so much – people just want to play, and their skills haven’t progressed to the point that other planes are feasible. And, if my experience is typical, it takes passing the midline to get past the quartet. That means that about half the players in the main arena are gonna feel bound to the easy planes.

So how best to deal with the situation? Seems obvious for me.

When we see players with ranks above 1500, we ought to take them under our “wings.” Give your lower ranked squaddies a tip each day. Tell them about that reversal, or explain energy concepts. Give them recorded flights. When  a newbie question pops up on 200, don’t mock the guy – answer the question, and private channel an offer to meet in the TA for a half hour. You can’t rely on the BBS, or the help files, or the training corps. Realistically, those resources will only be used for by a few – and bottom line is that their valiant efforts have still left half the MA pilots below the vets’ desired standard.

It may sound like a bit of a hassle, but remember the payoff – FEWER DWEEB PLANES. This is for you, oft complaining vets. Rolling planesets aren’t gonna happen, and you wont see the easy planes perked in you lifetime. The best way to see them gone is to care enough to teach, teach, teach.

You can complain about the status quo, or you can make a difference. So what are you going to do?

[Wadke]

rank means nothing...maybe i can teach levi though...his rank is bad

[JB73]

Originally posted by Wadke
rank means nothing...maybe i can teach levi though...his rank is bad

teach what you no skillz hack dweeb???





hehehhee

[RedTop]

I was just thinking that same thing..Him and that SPIT DWEEB RIDE....MAYBE...JUST MAYBE we could learn to fly the oh so mighty Luft Wobble planes...And learn to play the Game the way the FEW , THE PROUD , THE WANNABE LUFTWOBBLE brigade wants us to fly. I mean...Why should I fly my favorite ride of WW2 (The DWEEB SPIT V) and have any friggin fun at all. Lord knows I suck..Cant hit nothing..My plane is UBER and has WAY TO MANY ROUNDS of ammo in it. Its MAYBE the fastest plane in the game. Can Run from any mere 262. It's AWSOME and I do mean AWSOME UBERNESS is something that all in the flight sim world should really fear. It is the plane of choice for all NO SKILLED DWEEDY COULDNT KILL NOTHING IF YOU DIDNT HAVE A CRUTCH RIDE types in Aces High.

[Morpheus]

Get what?

wtf?

Can someone please tell me what is going on here???

[nopoop]

The fire has to be there. It's either there, or it isn't.

How hot the fire burns defines how far you take it, regardless of natural ability.

That can't be taught. If a new guy has the wanna, he'll find the way. He'll take it to the limit of his natural abilities.

You can't teach "wanna". And by the same token, if a pilot has "wanna", he'll find a way..

Did this post have to many W's ???

[xBarrelx]

Originally posted by RedTop
I was just thinking that same thing..Him and that SPIT DWEEB RIDE....MAYBE...JUST MAYBE we could learn to fly the oh so mighty Luft Wobble planes...And learn to play the Game the way the FEW , THE PROUD , THE WANNABE LUFTWOBBLE brigade wants us to fly. I mean...Why should I fly my favorite ride of WW2 (The DWEEB SPIT V) and have any friggin fun at all. Lord knows I suck..Cant hit nothing..My plane is UBER and has WAY TO MANY ROUNDS of ammo in it. Its MAYBE the fastest plane in the game. Can Run from any mere 262. It's AWSOME and I do mean AWSOME UBERNESS is something that all in the flight sim world should really fear. It is the plane of choice for all NO SKILLED DWEEDY COULDNT KILL NOTHING IF YOU DIDNT HAVE A CRUTCH RIDE types in Aces High.

lmao!!!!!!!!

[DipStick]

I like the concept of helping newbies, I've always tried to help as best I can.

Rank means nothing, it's in no way indicative of skill.

Teach them to fight though. Teach them some ACM not how to fly timid and run. I've only seen 2-3 guys that will actually fight in run90s, 51s, etc... most make one joke of a pass extend to 5-6k and repeat. How boring can it get?

90% of the heros in 51s, la7s and 90s fly timid and run at the 1st sign of not having a huge alt/e/#s advantage. That's the worst part of this game.

What you fly or what your ranked don't mean squat. It's how you fly and fight that makes for a good fight and a win or lose or...

PS... nopoop one more wanna and I'm gonna sick Wadke on you!

[Urchin]

See, the problem with that is you get some guy that goes "Wow, that was great, how did you do that!?  Can you show me?".  

I've never said no yet.  

Then you go in the DA, or the TA, and you try to show them what you did, but they don't even get the very basics.  

I.E.  Make sure you are comfortable with your view setup so you NEVER lose sight of your opponent (this one is breakable once you know what you opponent is going to do anyway).

Absolutely no concept of how airspeed effects turning radius, etc.  

I'd dearly love to "show people how to fight" in "atypical" planes.  The problem is they have to WANT to know how to fight.  

Most people get to the stage where they do one of two things.

Fly a P-51/La-7 and bore n zoom.  Eventually, when they get to where they open fire at super long range, and then carefully break away from the target to zoom up 4 miles for their next strafing pass, they are considered "aces".  

Or

Fly a Niki/Spit9 (or a spit 5 once they discover the Spit 5 turns better than the Spit 9), and simply turn in one direction until friends get there or the other guy gets bored and leaves.

You can "angles fight" in a 190.  It is completely different from angles fighting in a Spit or a Niki.  You almost literally can't learn how to "fight" in a 190 (or F4U or P47 or anything similar, even a P51 for that matter) if you stay in a Spit/Nik.

Learning how to fight that way is hard.  You die a lot until you get your timing and your aim down.  People don't like dying, so people would much rather stay in a plane that does most of the work for them.  

When I first started playing this game, you could actually recognize people by A. what plane they were in, and B. how they were fighting.  Anyone remember Hblair and his 109?  I used to look at Hblair and say "I'm gonna be as good as him some day".

I don't know if it is the larger population or if the population in general is just more timid and lazy than they used to be in the "golden days" (as I see em anyway).  

When I first started playing, there were "up and comers" like me who picked a plane, picked a mentor, and learned how to fight.  Most of us decided to avoid the C-Hog since that was considered todays "La-7/Spit/Nik/P-51" (all that in one plane too.. it actually wasn't quite that good).  

At present, it seems newbies log in and say "Wuts da best plane?" and people say "Spit/Nik or La-7/P-51".. and away they go.  

I don't know if the turn-over is simply so high that we see different newbies in the same planes, flying the exact same way, or if we see the same newbies still flying the same plane the exact same way after months or years of playing... but it seems like the MA is stagnant.

[Simaril]

I guess that stagnancy is my point. I think a lot of the bottom half of the skill pile (I used rank as an easy marker, but I know that's not reliable) gets frustrated and quits. Some of them are first person shooter types, or arcade/action lovers, and the simulation approach just isnt gonna get into their guts no matter what we do. But others are potential long term players who give up over the learning curve.

I've loved ww2 planes for decades. I never could beat the boxed sims down on my own, in retrospect because I didnt understand energy concepts. My fascination with aviation history made me more motivated to make AH work than many newbies.

Even as I learned those concepts -- trying to get throught Shaw's book, seeking help in the TA and from the training squad guys (who were all great), setting up appointments with the advanced trainers -- I still found myself getting very frustrated. I almost quit several times, and i probably wouldn't still be in if it weren't for my brother's encouragement to hang in there. There are many like me, I'm sure.

There are a lot of intangibles in learning acm, no doubt. There are som many variables that its very hard to do, and very hard to teach well. Many don't get the concepts -- but some will.

The point of my post, and the exchange I was sure would follow, was to stimulate interest in catching the potential long term players who are getting lost. Trying to teach losers is part of the price, but the rewards -- larger player base, fewer dweeb planes, more challenging opponents -- ahs to be worth it.

How can we better retain players and improve their skills? For every one who asks, I'll bet there are 5 who won't ask, or who ask unhelpful people, or who don't know enough to even pick the right question.

[J_A_B]

I still remember how Torque could fly that F4U-1C so well he could whip it around without even seeming like he was turning and hose you down with 20mm's before you even knew he was pointed at you.


But people leave, new people appear, and the newbs of one generation become the vets of the next.  Such is the nature of flightsim communities.  We're fortunate, in a way, that our community is small enough to be able to rememer players from as far back as the 1980's and still respect them; how many people remember FPS players from even 3 years ago (for those of you who also play FPS's)?

J_A_B

[LYNX]

I agree with the wanna statement made above.  I think those of long standing here and in other sims had the "Wanna".  We got our arses shot off but said "How the **** did he do that?".  Then  off we went down the addiction slope lol.  They will do likewise.

[Misfit]

Nevermind

[TequilaChaser]

When we see players with ranks above 1500, we ought to take them under our “wings.”

hmm...my rank is averaging around 1650, just looked for this thread.  I also have finished in the top 100 numerous times...Rank has no bearing at all. Some flyers ranked in the 2000 range can still hand you your rearend if they want too..
as nopoop put it, you got to have the desire/drive/wanna to learn everything you can...and it takes months/years/decades to get there depending on how far you take it.
The majority just want to make score, get points, shoot things, they will eventually move on to the better/funner points of flight sims.
If anyone ask me or ask on open or country channel, I do my best to help them. I frown upon other and speak up if I see someone being a jerk to a new player.

You can’t rely on the BBS, or the help files, or the training corps. Realistically, those resources will only be used for by a few – and bottom line is that their valiant efforts have still left half the MA pilots below the vets’ desired standard.

It would do alot of good if Aces High had a news letter of somesort, where it mailed an autoemail to all subscribers , and list tips, maybe who did what in what event, who won KOTH that month, a link to check out the Aces high BBS.

tonight I along with 3 other Trainers was in the TA. out of a steady 11 to 17 people in there maybe 3 asked for help or had a question. This varies, sometimes it is real busy.

As for your opinion of what the vets desired standard of flying is, well I can asure you alot more in the Main arena would surely be flooding the Training Arena if HTC decided to cut the ability to score a HO or near HO shot down to say 10% chance. then these flyers that people are whining about would have to quit or learn how to actually do BFMs and combine it into ACM to learn how to shoot a bogey down. It is too easy for them now to take a 50/50 chance at a joust every time they rev. Most vets can avoid the joust and defeat them, but to the vets this becomes boring.

hmm.. I am on a rant...my apology:D

[Dead Man Flying]

Wait... does this mean that rank... does not matter?

-- Todd/Leviathn