Christians can sure be jerks

[Octavius]

Originally posted by demaw1
Octavious   agnostic

 Well big words ,very good writing ,interesting books,honest when you are not pretending to be drunk you do well, but

  If you were familier with what you were writing about ,the first and formost useage of agnostic is religious,meaning one who does not believe there can be proof of God, but does not deny the possibility of God.

  what you were talking about is secondary,I can be agnostic about you turning right or left.

 I only responded because I wanted iron to know he was right,but i am agnostic in your case.

Excuse me?  You seem to think you know me.  I know exactly what I'm talking about.  Dont tell me what MY argument is.  I presented it, and if you cant read and comprehend what I post, dont reply.  

Yes, anyone can be agnostic in terms of believing proof of an omnipotent being cannot be obtained.

He was also right about nazism you arnt but whats the use

I beg to differ.  Enlighten me, oh learned one.   Why?

[stiehl]

"2 billion" evil muslims, the chinese and the atheists are out to get you demaw. get your ammo and tinfoil ready

[bigsky]

http://atheist.8k.com/irritate.html/

[Octavius]

Originally posted by Mini D
I think it's pretty much a stretch to assume that an agnostic never hunted someone down and killed them, or that every war throughout history was started by either someone religous or an athiest... but never an agnostic (even if the word didn't exist back then). [/B]

The word wasn't coined until the 19th century, but the concept certainly existed.  I agree it is a stretch to claim all wars are begun by those with belief systems.  Thats why I tried to be careful not to use any extreme words when I made that assertion.  My bad if it was read wrong.

And, yes octavious, I do know the meaning of the word.  I believe people quickly hide "agnostic" atrocities behind other phrases such as "totallitarian" and "politics".  I'm not saying agnostics are war mongers or evil, but I'm not dismissing them as non-violent either.

[/b]

You're being agnostic  Deny nothing, but doubt everything.

Lets iron this out first before we begin arguing different topics.  Here's the definition I'll use...

ag·nos·ti·cism   Audio pronunciation of "agnosticism" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (g-nst-szm)
n.

   1. The doctrine that certainty about first principles or absolute truth is unattainable and that only perceptual phenomena are objects of exact knowledge.
   2. The belief that there can be no proof either that God exists or that God does not exist.

[/size]

I disagree that Nazi ideology followed a strict agnostic (definition 1) doctrine.  If we want to argue this point, then we might as well start a new thread.  Even so, my original assertion, as mentioned above, was not intended to be read as "No agnostics were ever violent."

So, I agree that one can be agnostic (definition 2) with a belief system already in place.  That said, agnostics are found on both sides of the fence.  In my case, I try to stay unbiased and on neither "side".  I haven't given my specific stance because I dont have one.  I try to reserve judgement.  Yeah, the weak, non-commital stance

[storch]

Originally posted by Chairboy
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-730atheist,0,1213421.story?coll=sfla-home-headlines

There are some who won't be happy until this country is the Christian equivalent of Iran or Afghanistan under Taliban rule.  You know how you boil a frog, right?  Degree by degree, the religious types are turning up the burner.

The classic example of intolerance by those that hold tolerance as the supreme virtue.  I personally wouldn't have walked out but you had better believe that atheist would have been invited to discuss his views with me mano a mano on the spot.  Generally speaking it has little effect on the atheist.  It is however instrumental in exposing listeners to the traditional point of view from an eloquent and well grounded person of faith with strong convictions.

I can safely say that when the time comes to start feeding Christians to the lions in America Mr. Chairboy will be supportive of the move, afterall Christians are sooooooo intolerant!

How's the weight coming off?

[phookat]

Originally posted by demaw1
Phookat......fine I will answer a few questions, but dont see the use as each of you have been intellectually dishonest in the reading of my posts.

Umm, no.  But if you don't have the wit to understand me, I can see why you might think that.

Originally posted by demaw1
1. Greek democracy: a couple of countries since beginning of time have had a form of democracy. America is the only republic that I know of, with a bill of rights,this is what gives the freedom.

Which was great, but not caused by Christianity.  If it were, America would have happened much earlier than it did.  You keep ignoring this, but it doesn't make it less true.

Originally posted by demaw1
They knew the dangers european style church/state relations and didnt want that.Therefore the idea of freedom of religion came into play, as no country had that.  In that freedom they said America is founded on judeo/christian teaching and most of our laws came from english common law which had its start ready...from the bible.But others could worship as they saw fit.

If America was truly based on Christianity, we would *not* have freedom of religion.  Christianity alone does not espouse freedom of religion.  No religion does, strictly speaking.  Neither does Marxism, but that is beside the point.  America broke away from any particular religion, but not from common societal morals--that is the only way freedom of religion could happen.  Those morals were not Christian any more than they were Jewish or Buddhist.

You seem to think that freedom of religion in America was some minor advancement of contemporary European political thought.  It was not.  It was a hugely diffrerent way of looking at the world, one in which religion was made into a freely accepted individual pursuit rather than an enforced dogma.  A way of looking, I might add, that has been hugely successful at many levels both spiritual and earthly, and has been emulated and adopted the world over.

Originally posted by demaw1
3.plural churches. No where did they write of churchs as in many religions.It was singular church they were worried about.Such as england /protestant....russia/orthadox...spain/catholic...that is where the problem was....the guiding force for the u.s. was the bible not baptist, protestant, anything...I tell u this it sure wasnt secularism like it is today.

If you introduce *uniquely* Judeo-Christian precepts into US law, then religions which do not agree with those particular precepts are outlawed and freedom of religion is defeated.

Originally posted by demaw1
5. Freedom of religion implies nothing but what it says,FREEDOM of religion.You may try to twist it any which way you want but the three words have only 1 meaning.

So let me get this straight.  Should Americans be allowed to be atheists or not, in your opinion?  If yes, then indeed you agree that Americans have freedom from religion as well as of.

Originally posted by demaw1
6.ONCE AGAIN,The founding fathers, in all their writings never said anything except  freedom of religion......not freedom from religion because anyone can see you cant have both.

I think you are the only one that "sees" this.  Please explain why you can't have both.  It better be a pretty good explanation, because we clearly have both right now in America as well as many other places in the world.

Originally posted by demaw1
7.both statements 1]  persecution complex and arrest atheist are frankly stupid.

Indeed they are, but you certainly seemed to imply them.  Especially the former.  Thrown to the lions?  Get a grip.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by Booky
More tolerable?  Your kidding me right?  I look around and all the things that adults like myself "tolerate" on a day to day basis and your asking me to tolerate more?  WTF dude, when is it your chance to sacrifice a bit of tolerance?

America is built on many religions and beliefs. "The Great Melting Pot" and all that stuff.  It's everywhere.  And if you can't "tolerate" it as an adult in America and learn to have your own beliefs and see the next guy practice a different belief without feeling defensive or offended, than you're gonna live your whole life continually "offended".

So ya, if you can't take it and don't feel like you should have to "tolerate" some elses RIGHT to express their beliefs than YOU are the one that has the problem and are screwed until you get over it.

[phookat]

Originally posted by demaw1
Putting religion in gov.is no issue as you can not put 10 different religions in gov. Therefore freedom of religion means, the gov.can not pick a religion to be a state religion because then you would not have freedom of religion.
 Ironic that is exactly what people with your beliefs are trying to do.You want your religion...secular humanism... to be the state religion.

Look up "secular" in your dictionary.

Originally posted by demaw1
3.Tiny cross...It is sad that is all you think it is,no it didnt stop me from praying, but we are not stupid,what it did do is chip away a little more of freedom of religion,to freedom from religion which would destory freedom of religion

The government is not an indivudual citizen, and should not be treated as such.  The government is unique in that it is the ruling authority and maintains a monopoly on the use of force.  The "rights" of the government should therefore be severely restricted, so as not to trample the rights of individuals.  That means that the government is not and should not espouse or be based on any particular religion.  The cross was seen by some as a symbol of a particular religion, and was therefore objected to.

Personally speaking, I care about the laws and their enforcement, not about a picture on a piece of paper.  And I think it was unfair to remove the Cross and not the Goddess, but I see that as simply an issue of "political correctness"; lame but harmless.

Originally posted by demaw1
From youall [generic] trying to destory the boy scouts,to arresting 15 / 9th graders that held hands in a circle around a flag pole at their school opening day to ask God to bless the school and the teachers and to help them understand what the teachers are trying to teach during the school year.

"We all" [generic] aren't.

Originally posted by demaw1
4. Atheism,secular humanism ,communism,nazism, facism all the same and it is causing it all.and they all did and do 3 main things before or right after they take power....demonize christianity is one of them.

If you think the current secular US government is "demonizing Christianity", then you need to come out of your apocalyptic retreat.  Yes, there have been non-Christian governments that have sucked, as well as Christian governments that have sucked.  BTW a guy named Martin Luther wrote something called "On the Jews and Their Lies".  This is not about religion or the lack of it.  It is about individuals and how they choose to behave.

Originally posted by demaw1
5. Persecution complex ,emm all I did was read about the little girl huh, oh and then I magnified it to represent society,how silly of me....Well  you bet your bellybutton no one is persecuting me, hint...no one will.

Incidentally, what ever happened to turning the other cheek?

[phookat]

Originally posted by Booky
More tolerable?  Your kidding me right?  I look around and all the things that adults like myself "tolerate" on a day to day basis and your asking me to tolerate more?  WTF dude, when is it your chance to sacrifice a bit of tolerance?

What exactly do you tolerate, and why do you find it so difficult to do so?

[demaw1]

Phookat   more questions....fine.

   1. get a grip..Since many people have a idea of christians,romans and lions, I used this discription to encompass all forms of persecution. Also bout 2 weeks ago+ another thread said something about getting the lions ready because they didnt like something some christian did.Funny I havent seen any thread by any christian ever say anything about atheist or there beliefs.I have been around here 3 weeks+ and have seen 3 demeaning threads about christians from the    tolerant   got tired of it.

2.difference between[ from,]and[ is.].oh sorry[of..]..Of...belonging or connected to....Congress shall make no law....freedom of religion....to be free to worship God,free to belong to any denomination I so choose, in private or public, without threat of life or limb from any goverment agency or individual, whether national or local in nature.[ parapharse words of John Adams.]
    This freedom extended to agnostic,athiest and even satanism,granted the people may not allow satanism but the courts would.simplisticly said.you put a sign at city hall saying there is no god,good fine more power to you.I put a sign at city hall that says God is alive and well,fine good, more power to me.

[ From]...separation,removal,exclusion.] freedom from religion= those that are religious must worship in private[not there yet] but it is being said...worship at home or church.

 removal... of all things religious from any thing connected with gov.From nativity scenes to a loney cross on a deserted civil war battlefield,  put there in memory of the fallen on both sides in1875 ,it was maintained by city funds all this time until the aclu and some a- hole atheist took it to court.  In reality a movement is under way to exclude religion from everything,  making sure christians are out of sight or in a darken corner some where.  I realize you would call this freedom of religion,  I dont and when it gets this far there will be civil war no matter what you say.

3.Judeo/christian precepts.....Again it is undeniable truth that America was founded on judeo/christian values[of course anyone can proclaim the world is flat]....I could go all the way back to Israel to show where our laws come from , not going to.I will however say our laws are based on the ten commandments and english common law.English common law is based on the judeo/christian bible.This is why you can have freedom of religion because these values are the only ones in the world to allow it.

4 particular religion.....Yes America was the first and only country to break away from a particular religion.  Religion is a man made concept,the bible does not contain a religion,as a matter of fact the word church doesnt appear until near the end of it after Jesus ascinded to heaven,because man used it as a gathering place and it evolved from there.This is why America can have all its freedom it does, because the freedoms are givin to her from a higher power ,as the founding fathers said, and not by man.What is given by man can be taken by man.
    The founding fathers knew this and America was founded on judeo/christian values based on the bible not on a religion.The founding fathers writings on this is very interesting and relays to the reader all their thoughts in an understandable way.[ not the revisionest crap of today]  This should dispell the contemparary european polictical thought you said I had.

5.ignoring this.....democracy was not caused by judeo/christian teaching but it was a direct result of it. Nothing I have said or you have said would have any bearing on when America came to be,the world is as it is.

 6. Fine...ok I dont have the wit to understand you,my shoulders are wide enough, I can take the disappointment.

[Heater]

Originally posted by ra


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[Arlo]

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[Octavius]

Demaw, your argument doesn't have a leg to stand on.  Why are you continuously using these "truths" with nothing factual to back them?  You seem to think it's common knowledge and "everybody should know this."  You probably never won a debate before.  Make an assertion, defend it with facts and evidence.  You have done nothing of the sort.  

2.difference between[ from,]and[ is.].oh sorry[of..]..Of...belonging or connected to....Congress shall make no law....freedom of religion....to be free to worship God,free to belong to any denomination I so choose, in private or public, without threat of life or limb from any goverment agency or individual, whether national or local in nature.[ parapharse words of John Adams.]
This freedom extended to agnostic,athiest and even satanism,granted the people may not allow satanism but the courts would.simplisticly said.you put a sign at city hall saying there is no god,good fine more power to you.I put a sign at city hall that says God is alive and well,fine good, more power to me.

Agnosticism is NOT a religion. It lacks a rigid, unchanging belief system.  Satanism, Christianity, athiesm, Hinduism, worship of cthulhu, etc ARE religions.  

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

[demaw1]

Phookat....................ag ain more answers.

  1.   Look up secular.......ok fine I know what secular humanism is but looked it up anyway

     secular.....wordly rather than spiritual.....not related to religion......opposite of religion. yep dictionary is right.

  2.   Gov. not citizen.....The goverment is of the people...for the people...by the people.........I am not going to explain this ,but it is not as you said.

 3.Gov maintains the monopoly on use of force......This gov, does not maintain the monopoly in use of force,[although with the growth of power of the gov in last 60 years has almost made your state ment true]  still the ultimate power is  in peoples hands.. Even further the power to overthrow this gov is still in the peoples hands.......[It is the God given right of every citizen in these united states,to own and carry a firearm, furthermore it is the responseability, nay, I say,  it is the duty of every citizen to rise up and overthrow the gov. of the united states if that gov becomes  tyrannical,  by force if neccessary.......Andrew Jackson....president of the united states......OH MY,  RIGHT TO BARE ARMS......GOD GIVEN RIGHT.......OPPS

4. Based in religion...........this gov is not and has not been based in a religion.

5. cross was seen by some........SO WHAT. the cross is the symbol of christianity, yes some dont like it, dont believe it, fine so dont look at it, turn the channel, what ever.The minority has no right .nor is it written anywhere that they have a right to take a constitusional right from the majority. The majority has no right nor is it written anywhere that they can take a constitusional right from the minority.  If you remove by law that little cross from the seal of L. A. you have remove a part of our history ,which is the goal. And you have made a mockery of freedom of religion.Thus you have decided freedom from religion is your passion .you cant have it both ways.

 6.generic.........Yes you are.


7. Martin Luther..........So what , who cares if he wrote an anti semitic book  hundreds of years ago.In that sense , he was a product of his time. But what did he do.....he freed the christian world from the legalistic grip of the roman cath.church of that day,thus makeing the written word available to the masses which in time changed the thinking of the christian world to what it is today.Now the jews have no greater friend than christians.The world is as it is.

8.[ not about religion, it is about how people choose to behave..]...
    Another rich but nieve statement.  The secular humanism values of europe and 45 percent of America among others is almost but not quite wrapped up in your statement above. You cant judge a country, gov.,people or person.I hear it all the time in here,  who are you to say America is better than france or russia etc. Secular humanist do not believe in a higher power,therefore you cant judge good from evil.
      you say people choose to behave or not.....ok   why? You personally might believe rape is wrong, where did that belief come from? from you?  you may say sociaty, ok where did sociaty get thier  belief and who is to say that belief is right. xyz comes rapes your wife, who are you or your sociaty to say he was wrong. His sociaty believes women are 3rd class citizens and it is right.    If in general, sociaty believes  there is a higher power that one day might judge everyone, than there is a little fear.[ I didnt say worship I said believe] Cant happen.....oh it happens all the time remember germany...It was legal to kill jews why? because they decided it was.


     
 9.Turning the other cheek......So you think you know the meaning of that little part of scripture.....well you dont .   it has nothing to do with what you were saying and the context you said  it. Kinda like you going to keith black and instructing him on how to build a racing engine.     I got one for you since you started quoting.....A man that does not protect his family is a coward and will be judged by God

[demaw1]

Octavius......leg to stand on.....truths with nothing to back them


       Yes I would think some of you would know some of this as a little used to be taught in high school.  As I have said before , since I was in 6 th grade , I have been an avid reader, I am now 52 that is a lot of reading.
    Whats this crap about proof, articiles  and such. I am suppose to teach you all I have learned in many years in 10 min? The only reason I went in to all this is because I was tired of the christian bashing by people that know nothing.


 If you erode 1 right such as freebom of religion and right to bear arms then freedom of assembly is next,freedom of speach after that.This country use to know that it was worth while to fight for all of the rights even the ones you didnt care for. Now half of us are doing nothing but sucking the hind tit of europe and digesting their values and closing our eyes to europes history.
     Have you ever read something written by the founding fathers, lincoln,  fdr, what about the red badge of courage.
     Yet you all claim to know how they thought, what they said about guns,religion,freedom,speech. You still havent learned that 10 min news cast of talking heads teach you nothing.

   Mosgood...you are a fool, nothing you said was right, nothing.If your life depended on something you said being based in historical fact, you would be proved wrong in 10 min ,and dead in 5 more.

    We have raised half of our people to be fools and it is our fault,mine to, thank GOD for the other half maybe we will survive.