Christians can sure be jerks

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by demaw1
If in general, sociaty believes  there is a higher power that one day might judge everyone, than there is a little fear

So you're saying that Christians only do right because they're afraid they'll be sent to hell?

Does that mean that an atheist who lives a good life, does charity, and helps others, is morally superior to the christian who only does it under threat?

Puzzling.

[FUNKED1]

Christian belief (the words of the New Testament) is that everybody is a sinner, even the most fervent believer, even an atheist who lives a "perfect" life.  In the old days you would have to face the music for it.  But Jesus made a sacrifice for you, and if you ask for his salvation, your sin can be forgiven and forgotten, and you can have eternal life.  The atheist is doomed regardless of his acts in this world.

[Octavius]

Originally posted by demaw1
Octavius......leg to stand on.....truths with nothing to back them


       Yes I would think some of you would know some of this as a little used to be taught in high school.  As I have said before , since I was in 6 th grade , I have been an avid reader, I am now 52 that is a lot of reading.
    Whats this crap about proof, articiles  and such. I am suppose to teach you all I have learned in many years in 10 min? The only reason I went in to all this is because I was tired of the christian bashing by people that know nothing.


 If you erode 1 right such as freebom of religion and right to bear arms then freedom of assembly is next,freedom of speach after that.This country use to know that it was worth while to fight for all of the rights even the ones you didnt care for. Now half of us are doing nothing but sucking the hind tit of europe and digesting their values and closing our eyes to europes history.
     Have you ever read something written by the founding fathers, lincoln,  fdr, what about the red badge of courage.
     Yet you all claim to know how they thought, what they said about guns,religion,freedom,speech. You still havent learned that 10 min news cast of talking heads teach you nothing.

   Mosgood...you are a fool, nothing you said was right, nothing.If your life depended on something you said being based in historical fact, you would be proved wrong in 10 min ,and dead in 5 more.

    We have raised half of our people to be fools and it is our fault,mine to, thank GOD for the other half maybe we will survive.

Again, you're claiming to be above it all.  You think 50 years of reading automatically makes your argument correct?  Why is Mosgood a fool and automatically wrong?  Because you say so?  Thats not how a debate works buddy.

Damnit give me some proof, give me some facts here.  I haven't seen ANYTHING from you other than "you're wrong because I say you're wrong... and I justify this because I read alot."  No leg to stand on.  You haven't even offered any proof, any sources, nothing.   Your replies thus far discredit any argument you think you have.

You seriously don't believe everything you read just because it's in print, do you?  I sure hope not.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by demaw1
Mosgood...you are a fool, nothing you said was right, nothing.If your life depended on something you said being based in historical fact, you would be proved wrong in 10 min ,and dead in 5 more.

Wow.  Thanks for saying that.  Everything is so clear now.  Nothing i said was right..... hmmmm.  btw.... wtf are you talking about?

[Arlo]

Originally posted by Chairboy
So you're saying that Christians only do right because they're afraid they'll be sent to hell?

Does that mean that an atheist who lives a good life, does charity, and helps others, is morally superior to the christian who only does it under threat?

Puzzling.

You actually have to understand the born again philosophy. Fear may bring one to grace .... but as the song says .... grace your fears relieve. Salvation is attained by acceptance. Acts are done by a convicted heart. The acts are the result .... after the fact. Salvation comes from repentance, confession, declaration and conviction.

A simpler understanding is to understand love. If someone you loved (this is after giving the heart and accepting salvation) asked you to make a sacrifice ... someone who's already made the ultimate sacrifice for you .... would you?

The puzzling part is seeing non-believers angry and resentful over others making that choice. I see fear there, actually. Fear that the "evil Christians" may take over and force people to make a choice that Christians already know is a personal choice that can't be coerced.

Nobody here ... or on Capitol Hill ... or in St. Paul's Cathederal ... or the at the Vatican .... or on a Christian TV station can make you decide to drop Atheism for Christianity. Some may spread the message ... a message you don't want to hear ... or are tired of hearing. No need to fear it. Just keep tuning it out. Certainly there's no doubts you harbor deep inside if you're comfortable with your beliefs. You can rest easy that you're soul is safe since you don't believe you have one.

As for politics ... politics is politics. There's been rather idiotic battles between Athiest lobbyists and Christian lobbyists since O'Hare flipped her lid over the possibility that the strong Atheistic values she was trying to instill in her children were being threatened by the hearing other kids (or teachers) pray in school. It set the tone for a whole new way to waste tax dollars. But, like I said, that's an entirely different thing, really.

[storch]

Originally posted by Chairboy
So you're saying that Christians only do right because they're afraid they'll be sent to hell?

Does that mean that an atheist who lives a good life, does charity, and helps others, is morally superior to the christian who only does it under threat?

Puzzling.

It's not about what good or bad you do.  There is no cosmic scale to be used to determine whether you will go to heaven or to hell.

I have often stated here and other places that I'm a poor example of christianity.  I'm supposed to love above all else and I truly don't.  Some people just deserve the hell they are going to and I'm ok with that.  But I shouldn't be.  It should bother me.  That is what is most wrong with me as a Christian.  The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.  I wish that I could say that in time I'll improve.  Sadly time is leading me further into indifference.

Here is what I'm 100% certain about.

1. I was born.
2. I'm going to die.
3. I will be dead waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than I have ever lived.
4. I believe in insurance.  I spend lots of money on insurance policies to protect temporal things.
5.  Everything in my intellect tells me I'm the product of intelligent design.
6. The Bible is 100% inerrant in it's prophecies.
7. The Holy Spirit witnesses to my spirit the eternal truths of my creator.

I made a personal decision in 1980 at the age of 23 to accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  That affects no one negatively and in fact has been positive for the people around me in many ways both subtle and plainly.

When I die I will stand before the creator of the universe to account for my sins.  But I won't need to pay for those sins because the price has been paid for me.  When the creator of the universe casts his gaze upon me all he sees is the blood of Jesus.

The spilling of blood is universally accepted as the only payment for the remission of sin.  I'm paid for, How 'bout you?

Eternity separated from God?  Not for me!  It doesn't have to be for you either.  That's the most important insurance policy I hold and it's the free gift of God.  I certainly didn't earn it and I certainly don't deserve it yet it's mine.

[demaw1]

Octavius....above it all

   I have never said I was above it all,I have said that a lot of you have been intellectually dishonest in reading my post on this issue.I said this was the third time all you  tolerant  people posted  a thread demeaning christians.Yes I am a christian,I proclaim it to the world,so what. you still dont get it ,I would have taken the same route this time if you [generic] had said buddist sure can be jerks, because it was freedom of religion that was and is being attacked ..Could have been any of the other clauses being attacked under these circumstances I would have done the same

   Nobody is automatically wrong,over the discourse of this so called debate,I have answered many questions and snotty replys the best I could in this setting,didnt want to , but was challanged by others to do so.In the end, I to have not been mr.manners all the time. It has been a very long time since I have discussed religion,and I had forgotten how fast atheist and secular humanist become vociferous.I have never understood it, you dont believe there is a God who cares,you are either right or wrong. We believe there is a God why do you care we are either right or wrong.But they go further and try to destory freedom of religion, that wont happen, with out a lot of bloodshed .I dont understand why you [generic] dont just leave it alone,you do your thing and we will do ours.

  I have watched those that ask for proof in here reject it when they get it. It is either from a right wing rag,or he is just a conservative moron . And what do you want for proof,a left leaning person,newspaper,article from an elitist.
   Well in this case I cant do that ,I dont have any proof in the format you want,  that is all superfical stuff. You read my paraphased writings from andrew jackson and john adams .Hey do I talk that way,no body does in 2004.
If you want proof of what I have said,than the first thing you do
is read the bible cover to cover, Then find at least 1 book on english  common law,that will be easy as they are everywhere. Find some books that were written by our founding fathers,or narrated by them.Include ben franklin. It would be better if you stay away from anything written[unless it is just a reprint] after 1925. After you feel comfortable that you have read enough then make up your own mind.
      I am not going to qualify your cheap shot with a answer.

      This is my main point: If I was to venture a guess I would say 65percent of Americans realize that we are in a so far bloodless civil war maybe more important than the last one. this war is for the hearts and minds of Americans, and the soul of America.. Many of Americans from all walks of life can see what is happening at this time. I said to several on this thread and I will say it again......JEWS will never again be led like sheep into gas chambers,
Christians will never again be led like sheep in to areanas or used as torches to light patios at night.
      We may be wiped out even , so be it ,but many will go with us.

       If you want to waste your time,feel free to call me all the names you wish.Need help just look at some of the previous post.

[mosgood]

Originally posted by demaw1
Octavius....above it all

   I have never said I was above it all,I have said that a lot of you have been intellectually dishonest in reading my post on this issue.I said this was the third time all you  tolerant  people posted  a thread demeaning christians.Yes I am a christian,I proclaim it to the world,so what. you still dont get it ,I would have taken the same route this time if you [generic] had said buddist sure can be jerks, because it was freedom of religion that was and is being attacked ..Could have been any of the other clauses being attacked under these circumstances I would have done the same

   Nobody is automatically wrong,over the discourse of this so called debate,I have answered many questions and snotty replys the best I could in this setting,didnt want to , but was challanged by others to do so.In the end, I to have not been mr.manners all the time. It has been a very long time since I have discussed religion,and I had forgotten how fast atheist and secular humanist become vociferous.I have never understood it, you dont believe there is a God who cares,you are either right or wrong. We believe there is a God why do you care we are either right or wrong.But they go further and try to destory freedom of religion, that wont happen, with out a lot of bloodshed .I dont understand why you [generic] dont just leave it alone,you do your thing and we will do ours.

  I have watched those that ask for proof in here reject it when they get it. It is either from a right wing rag,or he is just a conservative moron . And what do you want for proof,a left leaning person,newspaper,article from an elitist.
   Well in this case I cant do that ,I dont have any proof in the format you want,  that is all superfical stuff. You read my paraphased writings from andrew jackson and john adams .Hey do I talk that way,no body does in 2004.
If you want proof of what I have said,than the first thing you do
is read the bible cover to cover, Then find at least 1 book on english  common law,that will be easy as they are everywhere. Find some books that were written by our founding fathers,or narrated by them.Include ben franklin. It would be better if you stay away from anything written[unless it is just a reprint] after 1925. After you feel comfortable that you have read enough then make up your own mind.
      I am not going to qualify your cheap shot with a answer.

      This is my main point: If I was to venture a guess I would say 65percent of Americans realize that we are in a so far bloodless civil war maybe more important than the last one. this war is for the hearts and minds of Americans, and the soul of America.. Many of Americans from all walks of life can see what is happening at this time. I said to several on this thread and I will say it again......JEWS will never again be led like sheep into gas chambers,
Christians will never again be led like sheep in to areanas or used as torches to light patios at night.
      We may be wiped out even , so be it ,but many will go with us.

       If you want to waste your time,feel free to call me all the names you wish.Need help just look at some of the previous post.

Ok....  I've read your post and I still do not see where you have explained why I am a fool.  Or why I am wrong.  The people that got up and left SHOULD be more "Tolerant".  

No one was trying to throw them to the tigers or gas them.  They were in a public assembly in america and had a problem with someone else expressing their view that was different then theirs and had to make a scene about it.  Why leave?  Just wait till they are done and stay for what you came for.  Of course it was thier right to leave, I'm not saying that.  But it was silly to do so and all it does is hint at thier fear of hearing a different opinion.  Why... I have no idea.

This is America.  We have a lot of different types of people here and no ones life was in danger in that meeting.  They were just words that ment something to one person and didn't have to mean anything to others, if that's not their point of view.  


btw.. demaw, I'm not an athiest and it doesn't take one to see that it was silly for this to happen.

Originally posted by demaw1

Mosgood...you are a fool, nothing you said was right, nothing.If your life depended on something you said being based in historical fact, you would be proved wrong in 10 min ,and dead in 5 more.

Originally posted by demaw1

If you want to waste your time,feel free to call me all the names you wish.Need help just look at some of the previous post.

demaw....  you are a confused man.

[phookat]

Originally posted by Arlo
The puzzling part is seeing non-believers angry and resentful over others making that choice.

Nah, no one has a problem with that.  

Originally posted by Arlo
I see fear there, actually. Fear that the "evil Christians" may take over and force people to make a choice that Christians already know is a personal choice that can't be coerced.

Do all Christians know that this is a personal choice?  That would be great, since it imples keeping uniquely Christian principles out of our laws.

Originally posted by Arlo
Nobody here ... or on Capitol Hill ... or in St. Paul's Cathederal ... or the at the Vatican .... or on a Christian TV station can make you decide to drop Atheism for Christianity. Some may spread the message ... a message you don't want to hear ... or are tired of hearing. No need to fear it. Just keep tuning it out. Certainly there's no doubts you harbor deep inside if you're comfortable with your beliefs. You can rest easy that you're soul is safe since you don't believe you have one.

Does your statement apply to people who follow other religions as well, or is it just Atheists?  This is getting on a slightly different topic, but what I find strange about western religions is the idea that only their way is the right way.  That includes Christianity and Islam, for starters...Judaism too I think.  People may have a personal choice, but as far as Christians are concerned that choice can only be between the "right" religion and eternal damnation...and you pity the rest of us, and hope through prosetylizing that the rest of us will eventually see the light.  Seems to me that this is a somewhat arrogant attitude.  Is this fundamentally the Christian philosophy, or is it just the human interpretation of it?

Originally posted by Arlo
As for politics ... politics is politics. There's been rather idiotic battles between Athiest lobbyists and Christian lobbyists since O'Hare flipped her lid over the possibility that the strong Atheistic values she was trying to instill in her children were being threatened by the hearing other kids (or teachers) pray in school. It set the tone for a whole new way to waste tax dollars. But, like I said, that's an entirely different thing, really.

Indeed.  We all just need to live and let live.  But "letting live" is something we need to consider in government, since the government is our ruling authority and its whole purpose to *not* to let live.



Demaw-- Octavius is right.  We try to respond to your arguments logically, and you come back with the same stuff again just louder and longer.  "I am right because I said I'm right."  Fine, you're entitled to your delusions I suppose.  But if you want a meaningful discussion, it's time to remove the fingers from your ears and stop yelling "LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU".

[phookat]

Originally posted by mosgood
btw.. demaw, I'm not an athiest and it doesn't take one to see that it was silly for this to happen.

Exactly.

[phookat]

Originally posted by bigsky
http://atheist.8k.com/irritate.html/

LOL, I just saw this.  Some good stuff here.  Demaw, take a look.

[phookat]

Originally posted by storch
It's not about what good or bad you do.  There is no cosmic scale to be used to determine whether you will go to heaven or to hell.

OK.  Say you murder someone.  Will you go to hell, despite accepting Jesus as your savior?

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[Arlo]

Originally posted by phookat

Do all Christians know that this is a personal choice?  That would be great, since it imples keeping uniquely Christian principles out of our laws.

Not everyone that CALLS themself a Christian does .... but as far as your own assertion, what a horrible misconception. Christian principles have been an integral part of the western world's laws since the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as IT'S state religion. Jefferson's ideology of seperation of church and state cannot avoid such ... nor was it ever intended to. His letter to a Baptist congregation was simply to assure them that the government would not impede their religious freedoms.

Does your statement apply to people who follow other religions as well, or is it just Atheists?

Which specific statement in my post are you attempting to refer to?

This is getting on a slightly different topic, but what I find strange about western religions is the idea that only their way is the right way.  That includes Christianity and Islam, for starters...Judaism too I think.  People may have a personal choice, but as far as Christians are concerned that choice can only be between the "right" religion and eternal damnation...and you pity the rest of us, and hope through prosetylizing that the rest of us will eventually see the light.  Seems to me that this is a somewhat arrogant attitude.  Is this fundamentally the Christian philosophy, or is it just the human interpretation of it?

First you mention three religions then you finish up with the arrogance of Christians. But let's start at the beginning. You find it strange that Christianity, Judaism and Islam (all of which claim to worship the same God yet have fundimental differences on what they believe God's will is) all claim to be the true way. How is that strange to you? Even a superficial knowledge of the writings of each can divulge why each of these major religions believe it's way is the only way. And out of the three, Christianity allows for the most freedom and latitude. All it requires is acceptance of the Jesus of Nazareth as the son of God, acknowledgement that he died for sin and a committment to follow his teachings as best as one can (even then it acknowledges that we're only human and we have failings). It does not require forced coercion of non-believers (though some in history have tried that ... in the name of God and Jesus, even).

And of course Christianity teaches that it's the right way. So does Judaism, Islam and any other religion. So if that's a major issue someone has with Christians which leads them to dislike Christianity specifically (and perhaps all religion, in general), then they have their own intolerance to live with which thinly conceals it's own unique arrogance.

Indeed.  We all just need to live and let live.  But "letting live" is something we need to consider in government, since the government is our ruling authority and its whole purpose to *not* to let live.

Our government is still primarily comprised of elected representatives of the people (exception being the Judicial branch which is appointed by elected representatives). Granted, federal government attained greater authority after the Civil War but we still have a government of the people. If government's "whole purpose" is to not let live then it's by mandate of the people. In other words, in spite of special interest groups that choose to interpret the Constitution to fit their specific desires, the majority of the people still has a greater influence (or should) and, as such, will probably let their own desire on any issue brought up by said special interest groups known. Be the SIG Christian, Athiest or anything else.

[phookat]

Originally posted by FUNKED1
But Jesus made a sacrifice for you, and if you ask for his salvation, your sin can be forgiven and forgotten, and you can have eternal life.  The atheist is doomed regardless of his acts in this world.

Which of course applies to both atheists and other religions as well.  Nice setup.

[Arlo]

Originally posted by phookat
OK.  Say you murder someone.  Will you go to hell, despite accepting Jesus as your savior?

Accepting Jesus as your savior involves repentance of sin. All qualify ... murderers, prostitutes, pedophiles, thieves, liars, tax collectors. That's how it works.

Now, if you're refering to someone who's already accepted Christ as their savior committing a murder, then I suppose it involves whether they actually accepted Christ as their savior or they just gave lip service to join a social club their parents or business associates belong to. Even if it truly ended up being someone who accepted Christ falling prey to passion (crime of passion) ... they are saved from eternal damnation (though they most likely wouldn't be saved from worldly punishment).

Surely you knew this already. This is a key element to the widespread prosetylizing going on.