Author Topic: Picture is Worth a Thousand Words  (Read 5543 times)

Offline anonymous

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« Reply #60 on: August 01, 2004, 01:43:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Did I say he was not worthy? No. But I don't think someone who avoided the conflict is worthy of questioning the service of someone who did not.


when did bush ever question kerrys service?

Offline Toad

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« Reply #61 on: August 01, 2004, 02:30:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
who actually considered it his duty to serve there.
 


Kerry, Bush, and Vietnam

Quote
Yet I can't help thinking that aside from Kerry's actual actions in Vietnam, the two men don't have as much separating them as people think.

Both tried to avoid service in Vietnam, Bush through the Guard, Kerry through the Navy. Kerry deserves credit for still joining the active force, but it's clear he wasn't champing at the bit to get into the war, he just wanted to do his duty and go home. He did what he could to avoid getting any closer to Vietnam than necessary, and he left as quickly as he could. When he got home, both Kerry and Bush were able to get out of their obligations early to pursue personal business.

Again, Kerry deserves great credit for what he actually did while he was in Vietnam; my point is only that the image he now cultivates of the marked contrast to President Bush is, at least in part, an accident.

Had Kerry gotten what he wanted, he would never have had to fire a shot in anger, and the only difference between his service and President Bush's would be that Kerry did serve on active duty while Bush was a reservist.

Are the two equivalent? No. But I the evidence seems to show that the two men's attempts to avoid Vietnam were more similar than people would now believe.


Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
I don't question a vietnam vet's service, I work with alot of them. I don't question if any medals they have are legit, or do I question their patriotism.
 


Clearly, however, you question the patriotism of some who served in the military during the VietNam era but did not actually fight in VietNam.

2,100,000 served in Vietnam in the years from 1964-73. This was exactly 24% of the 8444000 who were in the active Armed Forces during those years.

So, what do you think of the 76% of the active Armed Forces that did not serve in Vietnam from '64-'73?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #62 on: August 01, 2004, 02:36:46 PM »
Good article.

"President Bush is on record admitting that he had no real desire to go to Vietnam."

"John Kerry never sought to avoid active military duty. The son of a military pilot, Kerry did actively seek to serve his country"
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #63 on: August 01, 2004, 02:39:32 PM »
Better read it all, Six. There isn't much difference even if you accept the Guard argument.

Kerry tried the 12 month derferment route and IIRC, he said somewhere that went Navy specifically to avoid Army ground combat in VN. Kinda like "hiding in the Guard", eh?

Further, you aren't answering the second part, are you? Big suprise.

Remind me, have you ever served in the military at all?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #64 on: August 01, 2004, 02:44:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Remind me, have you ever served in the military at all?


Lol, saw that coming. I guess I am alot like bush , huh?

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671

So, what do you think of the 76% of the active Armed Forces that did not serve in Vietnam from '64-'73?

I think if they went awol they would have to answer for it.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2004, 03:07:24 PM by Sixpence »
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline parker00

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« Reply #65 on: August 01, 2004, 03:09:11 PM »
Quote
They were like... Guard.... and got in because their daddies had pull and all. They weren't.. yanno... REAL SOLDIERS.



If your suggesting I said anything about the Guard then you are mistaken.  I have only been talking about Bush.  

I don't believe that I need to serve in the Air Force before I can say that a father with political power can influence someone else in the military. I was off on my timeline before, he was just a congressmen then US ambassador to the U.N. during his son's time in the airforce.  By the way, I am not just some conspiracy theorist who believes he is trying to take over the world, just that you made it sound like he had to be the best to become a pilot.  In which I would agree that you need to be the best but I hate to tell you, even bush has said he wasn't the greatest  in school and his grades show that.  So how else would he of got in? Not only was father and grandfather in politics, his dad received the "Distinguished Flying Cross for Bravery" medal.  Sorry if you can't see any connections. Now Bush may of had to work to stay in, but I strongly believe he was given the chance because of his father.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #66 on: August 01, 2004, 03:23:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Lol, saw that coming. I guess I am alot like bush , huh?...


...I think if they went awol they would have to answer for it.



No, I'd say pretty much like Clinton. Not like Bush at all; see Bush served.

Of course, just like the "stolen election" you've got nothing to show that he went AWOL. His honorable discharge is in fact proof that he did not. AWOL people don't get an honorable discharge.
Period.

However, you should get an award for another shining example of a "liberal dodge".

"If you can't answer honestly without embarassing yourself, change the subject."

WTG.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2004, 03:26:46 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #67 on: August 01, 2004, 03:24:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
Good article.

"President Bush is on record admitting that he had no real desire to go to Vietnam."

"John Kerry never sought to avoid active military duty. The son of a military pilot, Kerry did actively seek to serve his country"


Quote
"I didn't really want to get involved in the war," he later would tell the Boston Globe. "When I signed up for the swift boats, they had very little to do with the war. They were engaged in coastal patrolling, and that's what I thought I was going to do."


Via Boston Globe

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #68 on: August 01, 2004, 03:25:19 PM »
AWOL----absent for 30 days or less.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #69 on: August 01, 2004, 03:27:51 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Martlet
Via Boston Globe


You sure it wasn't the Herald?
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Martlet

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« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2004, 03:30:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
AWOL----absent for 30 days or less.

http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/3671


Absent Without Leave, you meant.

IE:  Without permission.

You have documents that show he didn't have permission?

Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
You sure it wasn't the Herald?


I'm sorry, I forgot you can't read.

Nope, it specifically says "Boston Globe".

Offline Toad

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« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2004, 03:30:50 PM »
This is what you said.

Quote
Originally posted by parker00
Fully rated?  I hope you realize that he was pushed up the ranks because of who his father is.  Not on his own merrit.  Not even Bush can show proof of his full service record.  Not sure myself, but how many other "fighter pilots" were given leave to work on a political campaign?


Here's the problem:

He WAS fully rated. Your daddy can't do that for you in a single-seat fighter. You have to do that all by yourself.  On your own merit.

As for "given leave", that's been beaten to death here too. You are aware his unit was transitioning right? Maybe you're not; read the history of the unit and it'll help you.

But bottom line is that your post is BS. He was fully rated and did it himself on his own merit.

Was their "political pull" on his getting into the unit? Wouldn't surprise me at all. But you're daddy can't pass your checkrides in UPT, RTU or in the unit for you.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2004, 03:33:37 PM »
AWOL and Dereliction of Duty
By WILLIAM WILGUS

Although I'm sure he didn't realize he was doing so, White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett has apparently confirmed that Bush was indeed AWOL---Absent Without Leave---during part of the period he obligated himself to serve in the Air National Guard. (Uniform Code of Military Justice 866. ART. 86. Absence Without Leave)

In his February 14, 2004 Houston Chronicle article `Some light shed on Bush Guard service', Michael Hedges wrote:

Bartlett said that Bush skipped the [Flight Medical] examination simply because he'd decided to go to Alabama as part of the political campaign and wouldn't be serving as a pilot there.

Since Bush would have been ordered---in the full military sense of the term---to present himself for that examination at a specified place, date, and time and failed to do so, Bush is guilty of being AWOL. It does not matter why Bush didn't show up, only that he did not.

That he apparently never faced any possibility of punishment for this infraction of the Military Code of Uniform Justice (UCMJ) can be due to only three things: an administrative failure, political influence, or dereliction of duty on part of the person or persons whose duty it would have been to institute such proceedings. Dereliction of duty, or failure to perform a required task, is also an infraction of the UCMJ and it's unlikely that anyone would have `decided' on his own to over-look the matter. Since the military has set procedures to follow for virtually every situation (and certainly the failure of someone to show up for an examination), it's very unlikely that an administrative failure occurred. That leaves political influence as the most likely reason Bush apparently was never brought up on charges under the UCMJ for being AWOL from the flight medical.

The big `flap' about Bush being AWOL is centered on his going to Alabama, and as a result absenting himself from his Guard duties in Texas. It's been written in at least one news article that Bush did receive permission to go to Alabama, but only months after the fact of his move. If that is truly the case, Bush was indeed AWOL during those months he was in Alabama prior to receiving that permission. The three possible reasons he apparently was not charged with being AWOL during that time are those I've mentioned in the preceding paragraph.

It's apparent that Bush is also guilty of Dereliction of Duty (892. Art. 92. Failure to Obey and Order or Regulation). Bush was assigned to `duties involving flight', specifically as a F-102 Fighter Pilot. That being the case, Bush would have been required to maintain a status of `qualified' as an F-102 pilot. To do so, he would have not only been required to pass an annual Flight Physical, but also `maintain proficiency' in the type and model aircraft he flew. That is accomplished by actually flying the aircraft. He also would have been required to keep his knowledge of the aircraft---including operating procedures and equipment changes---up to date. That's primarily accomplished by reading `notices' on the aircraft, but `presentations' where pilots must be present are also used---a staple for the National Guard's `Week-End Warriors'. Both pilot requirements are referred to collectively as `staying current'.

In any military organization, one simply does not decide to stop doing something. To `legally' stop flying for any period of time, Bush would have had to ask permission to do so. Since he apparently did not so ask, the charge of Dereliction of Duty should also be added to those of being AWOL.

William Wilgus served in the U.S. Navy from October 28, 1965 until November 4, 1974 and was honorably discharged. Assigned to duties involving flight, he logged 5,000 hours of flight time in Navy aircraft. Now retired, his hobbies are a web site called The Public Cause Network and digital photography. William also enjoys reading and listening to music---especially pre-1950s American Jazz. His e-mail address is Director@ThePublicCause.Net
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)

Offline Toad

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« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2004, 03:33:44 PM »
Six, your repetitive posting of the TomPaine site doesn't prove Bush as AWOL. Give it up. There's no proof.

But you can quit your "liberal dodge" anytime you like and answer that question.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Sixpence

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« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2004, 03:34:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sixpence
AWOL and Dereliction of Duty
By WILLIAM WILGUS

Although I'm sure he didn't realize he was doing so, White House Communications Director Dan Bartlett has apparently confirmed that Bush was indeed AWOL---Absent Without Leave---during part of the period he obligated himself to serve in the Air National Guard. (Uniform Code of Military Justice 866. ART. 86. Absence Without Leave)

In his February 14, 2004 Houston Chronicle article `Some light shed on Bush Guard service', Michael Hedges wrote:

Bartlett said that Bush skipped the [Flight Medical] examination simply because he'd decided to go to Alabama as part of the political campaign and wouldn't be serving as a pilot there.

Since Bush would have been ordered---in the full military sense of the term---to present himself for that examination at a specified place, date, and time and failed to do so, Bush is guilty of being AWOL. It does not matter why Bush didn't show up, only that he did not.

That he apparently never faced any possibility of punishment for this infraction of the Military Code of Uniform Justice (UCMJ) can be due to only three things: an administrative failure, political influence, or dereliction of duty on part of the person or persons whose duty it would have been to institute such proceedings. Dereliction of duty, or failure to perform a required task, is also an infraction of the UCMJ and it's unlikely that anyone would have `decided' on his own to over-look the matter. Since the military has set procedures to follow for virtually every situation (and certainly the failure of someone to show up for an examination), it's very unlikely that an administrative failure occurred. That leaves political influence as the most likely reason Bush apparently was never brought up on charges under the UCMJ for being AWOL from the flight medical.

The big `flap' about Bush being AWOL is centered on his going to Alabama, and as a result absenting himself from his Guard duties in Texas. It's been written in at least one news article that Bush did receive permission to go to Alabama, but only months after the fact of his move. If that is truly the case, Bush was indeed AWOL during those months he was in Alabama prior to receiving that permission. The three possible reasons he apparently was not charged with being AWOL during that time are those I've mentioned in the preceding paragraph.

It's apparent that Bush is also guilty of Dereliction of Duty (892. Art. 92. Failure to Obey and Order or Regulation). Bush was assigned to `duties involving flight', specifically as a F-102 Fighter Pilot. That being the case, Bush would have been required to maintain a status of `qualified' as an F-102 pilot. To do so, he would have not only been required to pass an annual Flight Physical, but also `maintain proficiency' in the type and model aircraft he flew. That is accomplished by actually flying the aircraft. He also would have been required to keep his knowledge of the aircraft---including operating procedures and equipment changes---up to date. That's primarily accomplished by reading `notices' on the aircraft, but `presentations' where pilots must be present are also used---a staple for the National Guard's `Week-End Warriors'. Both pilot requirements are referred to collectively as `staying current'.

In any military organization, one simply does not decide to stop doing something. To `legally' stop flying for any period of time, Bush would have had to ask permission to do so. Since he apparently did not so ask, the charge of Dereliction of Duty should also be added to those of being AWOL.

William Wilgus served in the U.S. Navy from October 28, 1965 until November 4, 1974 and was honorably discharged. Assigned to duties involving flight, he logged 5,000 hours of flight time in Navy aircraft. Now retired, his hobbies are a web site called The Public Cause Network and digital photography. William also enjoys reading and listening to music---especially pre-1950s American Jazz. His e-mail address is Director@ThePublicCause.Net
"My grandaddy always told me, "There are three things that'll put a good man down: Losin' a good woman, eatin' bad possum, or eatin' good possum."" - Holden McGroin

(and I still say he wasn't trying to spell possum!)