Author Topic: More Gun control??? (Read 5588 times)

TPIguy · « **Reply #30 on:** August 08, 2004, 02:35:56 PM »

Machine guns ARE still legal to own in the US. its just that at $5-20K each the average joe can't afford to own one. The rich still can, but the rest of us can't afford our 2nd amendment rights. But thats a topic for another day...

I'm not a big fan of the m16 family, but that seems to be the current example so I'll run with it. Yes I agree an ar15 is not the best option for home defense. That is if you live in a sardine can apartment or in the suburbs where houses are packed tighter than Elton John's backside. In that case, a shotgun or pistol w/ HP ammo is your best bet.

However, alot of us live out in the country. Out here you need more range and power than a pistol or shotgun can provide. (preferably something in the .30cal range.)
Sure bolt guns are fine for single targets, semis are good too. But what about a truckload of armed men? I hope you're a good shot with your hunting rifle. And if you've got a mini-14 I hope its alot more accurate than the one I had.

Now this is the point where someone says "a truckload of armed men? thats redikulus!"

Well maybe it is, maybe it ain't. You can never tell what the future will behold, and I think its good to be prepared.

What happends if you live on a ranch near a major city and that city is attacked with a WMD of some sort? Don't say it can't or won't happen. Terrorists are trying to do it, and will continue to try.

I'll tell you what will happen, hundereds of thousands perhaps MILLIONS of people will be fleeing the city. The ones that make it out may be infected with disease, or covered in radioactive dust or other harmful chemicals. Where will these people go? Wherever there is food and shelter. Where is food and shelter? At your ranch thats where!

Will they ask politly if they can live in your house and eat your family's food? Doubtful.

Desperate people take desperate measues. It not too hard to believe that starving people would band together and try to take over a ranch or farm that won't share its livestock and crops.

If you depend on those livestock and crops to feed your family, you better be willing and able to defend them.

Now thats just one scenario that my paranoid mind can conjure up. But what it boils down to is one must beable to defend himself and his family under any circumstances. And thats hard to do with a board with a nail in it.

beet1e · « **Reply #31 on:** August 08, 2004, 02:58:36 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TPIguy

Desperate people take desperate measues. It not too hard to believe that starving people would band together and try to take over a ranch or farm that won't share its livestock and crops.

If you depend on those livestock and crops to feed your family, you better be willing and able to defend them.

Now thats just one scenario that my paranoid mind can conjure up. But what it boils down to is one must beable to defend himself and his family under any circumstances. And thats hard to do with a board with a nail in it.

Good post - and that scenario is exactly what's playing out in Zimbabwe these days. White farmers are being subjected to Robert Mugabe's land-grab... and there's not a single thing they can do about it, guns or no guns. If they DO resist, Mugabe will send a larger possé, only this time the farm's rightful owners will be lucky to escape with their lives.

If you think that a force of that kind can repelled with an M16, time to do a reality check.

NUKE · « **Reply #32 on:** August 08, 2004, 03:04:24 PM »

... better just to be totally helpless and just take it in the bellybutton for anyone with a stick rather than be prepaired the best you can.

TPIguy · « **Reply #33 on:** August 08, 2004, 03:25:58 PM »

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If you think that a force of that kind can repelled with an M16, time to do a reality check.

I don't live in zimbabwe, I live in florida. And I'm not talking about well organized and well armed militants. I'm talking about lighty armed starving refugees who want to steal your food. In that case a family armed with m16's (preferably FALS or M14's) probibly COULD keep them at bay. Or ateast force them to plunder elsewhere.

One man's family can't be expected to repel and army. But a couple of machine guns would go along ways against looters.

demaw1 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 08, 2004, 03:29:55 PM »

Beetle......sorry didnt notice about england. Yes you are right if it happened in England you have no chance whatso ever.I kinda thought no matter where we are from we were talking about here in America, my bad.

I dont think PTI was talking about a stand and fight event.

For the most part America is still the fight and die type.For the most part europe is the talk and die type. If what is happening in zimbabwe happened here we would not fight 1 ranch at a time but create a larger force by joining together. The true reality check should be does the larger force want to face whatever with m16s or do they want to try useing resolutions.....S orry got to go with m16s lol.

Wonko_the_Sane · « **Reply #35 on:** August 08, 2004, 04:55:30 PM »

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"I'm saying that given the choice between a m16 and a 9mm a criminal will always choose a m16..."

Are you high? The M16 is the worst weapon our military has ever had to carry.
They just keep on giving us inferior weapons. Like when in 96 they took our .45's away as a sidearm and gave us that POS Beretta M9.

Give me an M14 or an SKS any day.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #36 on:** August 08, 2004, 05:18:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wonko_the_Sane
Are you high? The M16 is the worst weapon our military has ever had to carry.
They just keep on giving us inferior weapons. Like when in 96 they took our .45's away as a sidearm and gave us that POS Beretta M9.

Give me an M14 or an SKS any day.

OK i have to disagree with you on both points but only half way.

M16s....great weapons....NO.....worst weapon.....no again

.45s.....great weapons....yea.....old weapons.....yea again

I remember shooting a .45 on the range and every time I fired I had to hit the but of it on the palm of my hand in order for it to shoot any were close to were the last round was shot.

If you are saying the .45 is better for stopping power....I definatly agree. The fact was that all the .45s in the inventory were getting dirt old and unreliable. I couldnt venture a guess why they switched to the 9mm but it aint THAT bad of a weapon.

I definatly agree with you on the M14.....it may have been heavier than the 16 but it was definatly more reliable.

Wonko_the_Sane · « **Reply #37 on:** August 08, 2004, 05:33:30 PM »

I based my assesment of the M16 based solely on reliability. If a weapon is not reliable it is a POS. Just like the M9 9mm. slide jams ALOT..stovepipes ALOT.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #38 on:** August 08, 2004, 05:51:23 PM »

Ahh yes the doomsday, killin citty dwellers on your ranch perimiter deal....

Lemme see, I'd like one of these.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?s=1-292925-xm8.php

all versions of course, assault w/grenade, carbine and SAW type

Next surely some sort of MP5..

Of course why not give a UMP 45 a try too..

And just for the coolness factor.

http://www.heckler-koch.de/html/english/behoerden/02_submachineguns/02_01_index.html

Finally also an M4 because they look mean as hell with all those rails and accesories.

Of course I just couldnt do without heavier weapons...

M2 50cal, gotta have it.

MK19 40mm grenade launcher, for the pesky determined ones...

MG42 (MG3 will do too, gotta have that look)

Otto · « **Reply #39 on:** August 08, 2004, 06:33:50 PM »

What is unreliable about the M-16a2..?

TPIguy · « **Reply #40 on:** August 08, 2004, 08:03:33 PM »

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Originally posted by Otto
What is unreliable about the M-16a2..?

it doesn't handle dirt/sand/mud very well. Basically you have to keep it very clean in order for it to function. Thats hard to do on a battlefield (so I hear.)

Also, I've seen more than a couple AR's at the gun range have trouble with cheap ammo.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #41 on:** August 08, 2004, 08:12:46 PM »

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Originally posted by TPIguy
it doesn't handle dirt/sand/mud very well. Basically you have to keep it very clean in order for it to function. Thats hard to do on a battlefield (so I hear.)

Also, I've seen more than a couple AR's at the gun range have trouble with cheap ammo.

that pretty much sums it up. If you drop the thing in the dirt chances are it will not shoot when you pick it up. In a desert environment you have to clean the thing at least twice a day.

The big thing with the 507th mait co and jesica lynch is they had piss poor weapons cleaning. Allmost all of their rifles jammed when those that did tried to return fire.

One of the guys that is a true hero of that engagement nearly broke his hand hitting the forward assist on his weapon while firing it.

Otto · « **Reply #42 on:** August 08, 2004, 10:27:25 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by TPIguy
it doesn't handle dirt/sand/mud very well. Basically you have to keep it very clean in order for it to function. Thats hard to do on a battlefield (so I hear.)

Also, I've seen more than a couple AR's at the gun range have trouble with cheap ammo.

Let me rephrase the question. What are the reliablity problems with the M-16a2 if you keep it clean and fire quality ammo?

Jasta · « **Reply #43 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:45:53 AM »

Blaming a gun on a murder is like blaming a misspelled word on a pencil.

Gunslinger · « **Reply #44 on:** August 09, 2004, 12:51:24 AM »

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Originally posted by Otto
Let me rephrase the question. What are the reliablity problems with the M-16a2 if you keep it clean and fire quality ammo?

It is a closed bolt weapon. The bolt needs to be all the way forward in the bolt guide grooves in order for the firing pin to strike the round. If it has the slightest bit of debree in there it does not fire.

Sure if i'm on a rifle range this is not a problem but if I'm taking incoming fire and have to dive for cover or trudge through the mud the weapon gets dirty and becomes unreliable.

Besides cleaning and quality of ammo it is a fairly accurate weapon. With the proper training a marksman can hit a point target at 550 meters and an area target at 800 meters under Ideal weather conditions.