Author Topic: More Gun control???  (Read 5619 times)

Offline demaw1

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More Gun control???
« Reply #75 on: August 10, 2004, 10:25:41 PM »
WTG OTTO AND JASTA.



  NASHWAN.....the persecution of jews started early 1930s not 1940.



      There are many examples I could use, even modern ones, but I choose this one.

    The war for American independence.

    England circa 1700s

  1.  Largest and most powerfull navy in the world.
  2.  One of the richest countries in the world.
  3. One of the largest merchant fleets  in the world.
  4.  One of best equipt and trained armys in the world.
  5.  troops:   1,400,000 +/- under arms
  6.  cannon :  22,000
  7.  rifles,muskets : 1,800,000 +/-
  8.  powder and shot and accessories. :  unlimited
  9. tents :    unlimited
 10.  shoes :  unlimited
 11.  food ,water : unlimited
 12.  cold weather accessories : unlimited
 13.  ability to make war : unlimited.

 America:

 1. No navy to speak of.
 2. merchant fleet :  45 various ships.
 3. little money.
 4. troops :  150,000 +/-
 5.cannon :   5000 =/-
 6.rifles and muskets :  200,000 +/-
 7.powder ,shot and accessories : 4 month supply.
 8.tents : limited
 9.shoes : limited
10. Food,water : unlimited
11. cold weather accessories : limited
12. ability to make war.   limited.

     get the idea? nothing is impossible.


who ever does thank you.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2004, 10:32:05 PM by demaw1 »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2004, 08:46:05 AM »
beetle said.... "Many governments take the view that articles such as cars, knives, lawn mowers, insecticide sprayers, etc. can indeed be dangerous in the wrong hands, but also take the view that such devices have a legitimate primary use, and are likely to be used by people who are not part of any criminal fraternity. A gun, on the other hand, is designed to kill, and is one of the tools of the trade for the modern criminal.

Yes, a gun can be a very dangerous thing in the hands of an idiot, and clearly guns and idiots must be kept apart. We cannot legislate against idiots. So we do the next best thing. We legislate against guns."

notice he said "governments".     The arguement seems to say that lawn mowers are necessary and that their value far outweighs their danger and that all freedoms should be allotted to us citizens under a "value" system.

even with this bizzare reasoning... In the U.S. 2.5 to 3 MILLION crimes a year are prevented by firearms.... states with right to carry laws enjoy reduction in all forms of violent crime..

from both a freedom and human rights standpoint and an economic one... guns are necessary and a good value for the danger level.   Harsher penalties for gun crimes would increase their value even more.

And... the misspelled words analodgy is an interesting one... beetle takes the view that you simply need to ban pencils from idiots to prevent misspelled words.   of course... tho... he believes that most people are idiots if you use his "no one should have guns because people are idiots" logic.  Sooo... using beetles own logic... pencils should be outlawed or at least as restricted as firearms...  only the elite should have em... pencil clubs.. like english gun clubs for "the right people".

this is standard socialist liberal and gun neurotic viewpoint.   It never occurs to them to simply teach people to spell.   Or... to handle firearms safely.

lazs

Offline TalonX

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« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2004, 10:08:47 AM »
Beet1e,

Our constitution guarantees the right to keep and bear arms.  If Americans wish to legislate against guns, they must do so with an amendment.......

Regarding legislation against guns...  this is soooooooo stupid as to be laughable.    They are bringing tons of cocaine into this country, how hard to toss a few guns into the pile?  

Reality - legislation prevents honest citizens from having their right to guns.     It does nothing to prevent criminals.

I guess this lack of understanding is hard coded in some people...

Ben Franklin said, "He who would give up some FREEDOM for some security, deserves neither."    It's brilliant......
-TalonX

Forgotten, but back in the game.  :)

Offline TalonX

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« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2004, 10:09:54 AM »
I didn't even want to get into the "gun's are designed to kill" BS.

I was captain of HS and college shooting teams.....had nothing to do with killing anything.
-TalonX

Forgotten, but back in the game.  :)

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2004, 10:16:49 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by TalonX
I didn't even want to get into the "gun's are designed to kill" BS.

I was captain of HS and college shooting teams.....had nothing to do with killing anything.
BS. Why do you think there are more than 10,000 gun homicides a year in the US in some years, but fewer than 20 in a country such as Japan?

You're welcome to your 2nd Amendment. I asked on this board who would like to see their country have the sort of guns free for all as can be had in the USA. Guys from 16 different countries said they would not.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2004, 01:03:59 PM »
Shooting at targets is no different than Golf, Basketball, Darts, I'm sure they're more.  Those sports have nothing to do with homicides.

Why jump on TalonX?  Shooting is a skill and a sport of gentlemen, whether it be target shooting or hunting.

Shooting skills of Americans, (where guns are a strong tradition), served our country well during WWII.  You ever seen the movie about Sargeant York?

I guess it has a lot to do with how one feels about guns, depending on where the person grew up.  Still don't see the logic in disarming ordinary citizens.  I do not think they're idiots, and until proven otherwise, don't see the need to take away guns (like taking something harmful away from a child.)

Thank you for letting us keep our Second Amendment.  To answer your question Beet1e, Japan is a more homogenious society with strong traditions of the Code of Bushido, the way of the warrior.  Shame plays a large role in maintaining a civil society.  Ostracizing is a thing to be feared.  No one wants that.  

With all the self esteem being taught in public schools here, everyone's equal, I'm OK, You're OK, it's no wonder there are problems.  That, along with multiculturalism and the minimization of western culture, especially the contribution of Greek and Roman civilization.

Now I must check on Bonnie, who looks like she'll be paying a visit soon.  Lots of rain and thunder here now.  



Les

Offline wrag

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« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2004, 01:22:35 PM »
The concept of the 2nd amendment seems to be hard for some to understand.

This nation had just been through a situation where the government or those that represented it had trampled on their rights.

The quatering of troops does not seem to be much of a thing now but back then the people had to put up with soldiers quatered in their homes.  Eating their food, lording it over them, and in some cases forcing their women into unwanted sex.  So quatering troops in their homes became an issue.

It's much the same with several of the other amendments.

So few seem to fully understand the reasons behind those amendments.

Sadly I don't think their are many non-American's as well as a few American's that can see the point in the second amendment.

For these people it's the wild west and everyone running around with no selfcontrol shooting each other.  I tend to find myself thinking about the projection theory.  Where the thinker is incapable of looking at themsleves realistically and project what they would do into the other persons head and thus they blame the other person.  Many of the gun control fanatics I have become aquainted with IMHO should stay away from firearms.  In fact I would say that many of them were exactly the kind of people that should not be trusted with anything dangerous to themselves or others.  Their almost epoliptic siezure's of rage when they talk spit flying from their screaming mouths all wild eyed.  I remember thinking this person is on the edge and I better watch em close.

For me if someone I know is armed and in my home they are giving me a compliment.  If I am armed and in their home I am giving them a compliment.  In either case it is being said If someone comes into this house/home with evil intent all within will react accordingly.  We will defend this house/home.  Most American's I've known are very trust worthy when it comes to firearms.  Sadly too many of the generations following mine do not have the slightest understanding of firearms safety.  Sadly also the education system begain teaching firearm's safety either very poorly or not at all.

I have to say here that in almost every case the people I have known to be armed troubled me in NO way.
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline wrag

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« Reply #82 on: August 11, 2004, 01:29:44 PM »
Some thoughts......

"Any attempt to replace a personal conscience by a collective conscience does violence to the individual and is the first step toward totalitarianism." --Herman Hesse

"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers." --Socrates

"Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it." --George Santayana

"The true danger is when liberty is nibbled away, for expedience, and by parts." --Edmund Burke

"Freedom is the right to be wrong, not the right to do wrong." --John G. Diefenbaker

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any-price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life." --Theodore Roosevelt

"A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away." --Barry Goldwater

"Nothing is more dangerous in wartime than to live in the temperamental atmosphere of a Gallup Poll, always feeling one's pulse and taking one's temperature." --Winston Churchill

"Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies." --Groucho Marx
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #83 on: August 11, 2004, 01:30:03 PM »
Quote
NASHWAN.....the persecution of jews started early 1930s not 1940.


The mass murder didn't.

More than half the Jews in Germany managed to flee between the Nazis coming to power and the start of the war.

An early agressive response by Jews to the changes in law that the Nazis were implementing would have brought the mass murder forward, allowing less to escape, and reduced the standing of Jews even futher in other countries.

Quote
There are many examples I could use, even modern ones, but I choose this one.


Choose a modern one.

In your example, the civilians were armed with superior weaponry to the soldiers in many cases, the British were weeks or months away from their home, and the US had extensive help from France. At Yorktown, there were as many French troops as British.

Choose a modern example of a civilian population overthrowing a foreign invader with domesticaly owned arms.

Every case I know of where civilians have successfully fought foreign invaders, it's been with military weapons supplied by a foreign power, not with the small arms they had hidden under the bed.

Waco showed what should be obvious to anyone, small arms are useless against a government who can send in tanks and aircraft.

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Regarding legislation against guns... this is soooooooo stupid as to be laughable. They are bringing tons of cocaine into this country, how hard to toss a few guns into the pile?


Steet price of a kilo or 2 of cocaine? Street price of a handgun?

When guns cost too much, a crackhead is more likely to sell a gun he aquires than try to use it in a robbery, because he can get more money that way. Of course, the gun is a long term investment, but I've never heard that the sort of junkie that resorts to armed robbery thinks in the long term.

If guns are easily available, they're easily available to criminals.


(These are the firearms murder rate per 100,000 people)

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Reality - legislation prevents honest citizens from having their right to guns. It does nothing to prevent criminals.


Look at statistics on how criminals in America got their guns. Something over 10% stole them from legal owners, most bought them from other criminals who had stolen them from legal owners, some bought them from gun shows, classified ads, or from a dealer.

Almost all the guns in criminal's hands in the US have come through the legal supply chain before being diverted into the criminal sector.

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And... the misspelled words analodgy is an interesting one... beetle takes the view that you simply need to ban pencils from idiots to prevent misspelled words. of course... tho... he believes that most people are idiots if you use his "no one should have guns because people are idiots" logic. Sooo... using beetles own logic... pencils should be outlawed or at least as restricted as firearms... only the elite should have em... pencil clubs.. like english gun clubs for "the right people".


Spelling mistakes don't hurt as much as being shot, or so I've been told.

Offline Leslie

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« Reply #84 on: August 11, 2004, 02:09:38 PM »
"Spelling mistakes don't hurt as much as being shot, or so I've been told."




The last thing a criminal wants is to get shot.  For him, it's more than it hurting.  It likely means getting caught.

If he has a gun here in Alabama and commits a crime with it, it's an automatic and mandatory five year sentence hard time in prison.   This was recently enacted to help disuade criminals from using guns during crimes.

I agree criminals should not have guns, and fully support gun control for them.



Les

Offline Otto

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« Reply #85 on: August 11, 2004, 02:10:07 PM »
If you exclude Blacks and Hispanics from the statistics on violence and crime, the USA is no different than any European or Asian country.   I would guess it's the same in South Africa.

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2004, 01:06:24 AM »
Nashwan     killing didnt start until 1940.....


    The mass murder didnt, you are right, the mass round ups did.

     More than half of the jews fled germany... By everything I have read it didnt come close to half made it out...

   Again by 1936 what sane jew would care about other countries since they didnt care about them? An early agressive stance would most likely have stopped it all. The nazis early on were not that powerfull, thus almost every act was at night. Would not common sense suggest hiding in the night was because of weakness?

   Under no circumstances were the American civilians better armed than the british soldiers. Daniel Boone even had a british rifle and a hand made American rifle.He would switch depending on what he was doing.

   The Americans did NOT have extensive help from france.Yes there was some, and most of the french soldiers went home,as they didnt want to risk war with the british. Our debate is degree of help, not help.

  I am sure you know that the british had no trouble with resupply,and that all of it didnt have to come from england.And a huge amount was on American soil already.

  All countries recieve thier weapons from foriegn countries depending on geo politics at time.  Except America.
That is why Japan could never have invaded california in 41.

 All waco showed was that a hundred men, women, and children can not take on, an overwhelming force, in a undefenceable place, that had attack helos and tanks.Waco isnt logical example.

  The only stats I would believe are the yearly FBI stats...sorry.

 there are examples I can cite , not really important unless wanted.

Respectfully demaw.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 01:10:16 AM by demaw1 »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2004, 08:38:20 AM »
beetle... your poll was bogus as it asked if everyone wanted a bigf pile of guns stacked up in the town mall so that ANYONE could pick one up and carry it around.

my poll asked a more realistic question of "do you think your countries gun control is to strict, not strict enough or just right.

In my poll allmost all the euros with oderous gun control said "too strict" and those with enlightened or very little control said "just right"

nash... now look at the gun homicides for whites in America.   Look  at the overall plus and minus for all violent crime bearing in mind that 2-3 MILLION violent crimes are prevented by firearms every year in the U.S.  This is, after all about the U.S. but.... how is it that places like Norway with less restrictions on most firearms has very low gun crimes and Canada with as many guns per capita as the U.S. has so few?   Why has violent crime and crime in general allmost doubled in entgland and austrralia since they passed their draconian gun bans?

Do what you want (or whatever your king/queen wants) in your country but having only the "elite" shoot at birds in hunting clubs while the muggers and rapists run amock is not what I call a good gun control plan.

lazs

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2004, 11:28:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... your poll was bogus as it asked if everyone wanted a bigf pile of guns stacked up in the town mall so that ANYONE could pick one up and carry it around.
My poll was not bogus, and asked nothing of the kind. If my poll was bogus, how come so many people took the time to respond, and how come you were the only one claiming it was bogus? The only thing that skewed the results was that I asked for responses from non-Americans only, but guys like you and Ripsnort just couldn't keep your noses out.  Sure, you got different answers in your poll - because you asked an entirely different question, but you persist in claiming that you were asking the same question a different way. Which is, of course, bollocks.

I'm familiar with American history, and why guns were freely available in the 19th century and continue to be so now. And I have never said that law abiding Americans should be made to give them up.

More guns less crime? Just look at Iraq, or just look at Nashwan's chart. Target shooting sounds all very quaint and civilised, but like it or not, a large minority of the guns in circulation in the US have been acquired for crime and killing.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #89 on: August 12, 2004, 11:41:38 AM »
Quote
More than half of the jews fled germany... By everything I have read it didnt come close to half made it out...


I sugest you read again.

There were approx 550,000 Jews in Germany when the Nazis came to power.

Of those, approx 142,000 were eventually murdered. I've no doubt some survived, but most had already left.

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Again by 1936 what sane jew would care about other countries since they didnt care about them?


Anti-semitism was rife in some countires, far less so in others.

According to the beliefs of anti semites, Jews were not loyal to the countries they lived in, they plotted in secret against those countries.

Do you think it would strengthen anti semitism if in the early 30s Jews had organised a secret uprising against a democraticaly elected German government, before that government had taken really oppressive action?

Nazi repression of the Jews was a gradual thing, and by the time it was clear how bad things were going to get, it was already too late.

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An early agressive stance would most likely have stopped it all.


550,000 Jews can launch armed rebellion against the German government in the mid 30s and stopped the Nazi oppression? Don't be silly.

The Nazis were hugely popular in Germany in the 30s. If the Jews had precipitated action, the Nazis would be able to say "I told you so" and the Jews would have been wiped out much earlier.

If 550,000 Jews with guns are going to be so effective, what about the 80 million Germans with guns? Aren't they going to by 160 times more effective?

Or does a "good guy" with a gun automatically win against a "bad guy" with a gun? (and the inverted commas aren't meant to suggest Jews weren't good, and Nazis bad)

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Under no circumstances were the American civilians better armed than the british soldiers.


Hunting weapons in the 18th century were typically superior to military weapons.

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The Americans did NOT have extensive help from france.


They had help from the French fleet, they had supplies from France, they had French regular troops on their side.

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The Americans did NOT have extensive help from france.Yes there was some, and most of the french soldiers went home,as they didnt want to risk war with the british. Our debate is degree of help, not help.

I am sure you know that the british had no trouble with resupply,and that all of it didnt have to come from england.And a huge amount was on American soil already.


BTW, why is america capitalised, and Britain, France and England not?

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All countries recieve thier weapons from foriegn countries depending on geo politics at time. Except America.


No, most countries make their own weapons, to a certain extent.

What I mean is, it doesn't matter how many pistols and rifles you have hidden under the bed, you need proper military weapons like machine guns, mortars, artillery, missiles, etc to have an effect in a modern battle.

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All waco showed was that a hundred men, women, and children can not take on, an overwhelming force, in a undefenceable place, that had attack helos and tanks.Waco isnt logical example.


Waco is the perfect example. It shows what happens when fools with guns think they can stand up to an army. They can't.

If you've got a gun, they bring a tank, and as the Iraqis have proved, you need good modern, very expensive, anti-tank weapons to take out a modern tank.

If by some miracle you manage to get a suitable anti-tank weapon, they bring aircraft, or artillery. They will outgun you.

Unless you have foreign backers who will supply you with the latest military weaponry, you will lose.

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The only stats I would believe are the yearly FBI stats...sorry.


Those are the yearly FBI stats.

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beetle... your poll was bogus as it asked if everyone wanted a bigf pile of guns stacked up in the town mall so that ANYONE could pick one up and carry it around.

my poll asked a more realistic question of "do you think your countries gun control is to strict, not strict enough or just right.


Why not ask a question like:

Would you prefer your countriy's gun laws or America's gun laws?

You could even throw in a third option, Lazs ' gun laws.

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nash... now look at the gun homicides for whites in America.


I have. According to the FBI, around half the murders in the US are comitted by whites. (actually around a third by whites, a third black, a third unkown, but that's roughly half of know murders, and probably a similar percentage of the unkowns as well)

Note that to match the rate for everyone in England and Wales last year ie including the urban poor, you would have to have to have less than 400 people shot by white Americans.

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how is it that places like Norway with less restrictions on most firearms has very low gun crimes and Canada with as many guns per capita as the U.S. has so few?


Fewer handguns, which are the weapon of choice for the criminal, because they are easy to conceal,

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Why has violent crime and crime in general allmost doubled in entgland and austrralia since they passed their draconian gun bans?


I can't speak for Australia, but it hasn't in Britain.

The way the police recorded minor crime in Britain has changed, so for example someone pushing someone else was rarely recorded before, now goes down as a "violent crime".

Years ago, a "violent crime" that resulted in no injury usually didn't get recorded. Now over 40% of police recorded "violent crime" involves no injury, not even a bruise, graze, scrape or black eye, which are all recorded now under "woundings".

For over a decade, they've been collecting an alternative set of crime figures, called the "British Crime Survey". 40,000 people are questioned on their experience of crime in a year, at random.  It gives a good picture of what crimes are actually happening, and catches many minor crimes the police do not record, or which are not reported to police.

The BCS shows violent crime has declined by 35% since 1995.

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Do what you want (or whatever your king/queen wants) in your country but having only the "elite" shoot at birds in hunting clubs while the muggers and rapists run amock is not what I call a good gun control plan.


Rape is one of the few crimes that is higher in America than Britain. Perhaps it's harder to get away from a rapist with a gun than an unarmed one?
« Last Edit: August 12, 2004, 11:50:39 AM by Nashwan »