Author Topic: More Gun control???  (Read 6830 times)

Offline beet1e

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More Gun control???
« Reply #180 on: August 17, 2004, 04:12:46 AM »
Well Demaw, it's becoming ever more clear to me that the only things you know about Europe are what you see on TV. I can tell from your somewhat lacklustre grammar and spelling that you don't do much reading.

As for citizens being able to repulse the US military, I don't think so. Just look at Iraq - much of their hardware was dated, but at least they had a trained army, and most of the male civilian  population was armed. Compare that with the US population. How many of them are trained for military combat? You're talking about untrained citizens, many of whom would be overweight, many of whom would be over 60. If the Iraqi army couldn't save Saddam against incoming US forces, I have grave doubts about John and Jane Doe being able to do it.

It is clear you have never been to Europe, whereas I have lived in America. Did I suddenly feel a wave of "freedom" sweep over me when I set foot in your country? Erm... nope. Was there anything I could do there that I was not permitted to do here? Erm... can't think of anything. If anything, the US was more draconian in the workplace: We were expected to work a 40 hour work week starting at 8am! In Europe/Britain, we had been used to flexible working hours for years. In my last job, I used to turn up at 10am and work till about 6pm, taking an hour for lunch making a 35 hour work week. I think America has finally caught up on this now. But I was working in the US as recently as 1997, and as many of the other Brits observed, they didn't want us just to do the job, they wanted a chunk of our lives too. My line manager was gobsmacked when he instructed one of our guys to work the weekend only to be told it wasn't possible because the guy had other plans! :lol After a couple of months working that job in 1997 (which I enjoyed immensely, I have to say) I spent a couple of months working for a company near Antibes, France. There, they had lots of public holidays - and two hour lunches! The French were quite sneaky with their public holidays, which often occurred on a Thursday so they could bridge the gap - take Friday off as well and have a four day weekend. The practice was known as faire le pont, and once happened on two consecutive weekends!

One of the reasons why so few Americans hold passports is because they don't get enough holiday entitlement to go on any long trips. They're tied to their desks for 50 weeks of the year. A typical US employee would only get two weeks holiday (vacation) entitlement, whereas in Europe it's more normal to get five or six. As Aesop said, "Lean freedom is better than fat slavery". Oh yeah, and on the subject of travel/passports, don't even bother with that "we have everything we need right here" crap.

Just scratching my head wondering what I could do in the US but not here. Well guns etc., but I never needed to own one, and did not avail myself of the opportunity to shoot in America. To be perfectly honest, it never occurred to me to do so. I've done that since, with Lazs.

I've had the chance to work in the US on a permanent basis in recent years. Indeed, one of my close friends who I met through work in the 80s, relocated there and has a green card, and currently lives and works in Fort Smith, AR. But I could never come to terms with the somewhat pitiful vacation allowance. The handcuffs may be made of gold, but they're still handcuffs.

Offline Jackal1

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« Reply #181 on: August 17, 2004, 06:26:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by beet1e
. Indeed, one of my close friends who I met through work in the 80s, relocated there and has a green card, and currently lives and works in Fort Smith, AR.  [/B]


rofl Now there is a place that could certainly perk your interest in training for the use of firearms. The OK coral , Arkansas style.  :D
Democracy is two wolves deciding on what to eat. Freedom is a well armed sheep protesting the vote.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #182 on: August 17, 2004, 08:22:55 AM »
well... you guys don't think that Americans or anyone could revolt against an unjust government so maybe we should take your advice that you use against criminals and.... just give up... victimhood is not so bad?  Hide under the bed while the government steals your country like you hide as the bgurglars steal your belongings?

I disagree.   we aren't some tinmy little landscaped island of the kings land here.   The government can't be everywhere and can't stop thousands of small uprisings with an army that may or mayu not be loyal.

nashwan... I say that if about half the murder victims are black or other and the rest white then... according to the way they are murdered, by race...then at best... 7000 whites commit murder but... the blacks and "other" kill about 15% of the unknown whites where the whites only kill about 7% of the blacks...

lets just say that there are 6000 whites committing murder... compared to your 1000...  but... you have 1/6 the population... even at your best years you have 750 or what, 4500?  seems your best years equal about one less murder per 100,000 and your worst are about the same as our white murder rate.   you are subjects for nothing.  except that burglars feel free to rob you while you shiver under the bed and you get to pray your government never goes bad.

I will concede that you have a very poor record for catching and incarcerating crooks so that might explain why you have so many and I will concede that in America allmost all assasins and serial killers are white but.... most serial killers in America don't use guns.


So... getting rid of guns doesn't significantly reduce murder (yours isn't reduced since 96 and it isn't significantly less than ours) and getting rid of guns increases personal crime whereas increased concealled carry use decreases our crime.

Your crime rate was going down before 96 and now it is going up.

The trend in America is for more concealled carry... not less.   It is working despite all the "common sense wisdom" of those who claimed it would cause a bloodbath at every traffic light.  The future looks bright... people aren't buying into the suing of gun manufacturers or any other draconian measures to disarm us... the worse things get the more people in America want guns not less.  Terrorists... gangs... carjackings... rape.. they cause people to buy guns not shun them.

but... even if our homicide rate with firearms or one certain type of firearm were quadrupled.... I would still demand my right to exercise my second ammendment rights as a free man.

pei... while what you say sounds reasonable.... it is wrong.   The type of weapon is not important... how it is stored is a matter of individual choice... regestration is worthless.   I would however restrict gun sales to minors without parents consent and to the insane... I would give a mass murderers weapon  back to him tho (if not proven insane) when he was released from prison.

lazs

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #183 on: August 17, 2004, 09:27:59 AM »
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lets just say that there are 6000 whites committing murder... compared to your 1000.


It helps if you use the right statistics.

It's 7,000 in the US, 853 total murders in England and Wales.

That's not a white figure, that's the total.

As an example, London has a 30% ethnic minority population, London's murder rate is over 3 per 100,000, without London the rest of England and Wales averages about 1.4

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even at your best years you have 750 or what, 4500?


4500 what? Murders? Never, ever been anywhere near that. Not in modern times anyway. (ie last 150 years or so)

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seems your best years equal about one less murder per 100,000 and your worst are about the same as our white murder rate.


No, for our all race murder rate to equal your white murder rate we'd need 1550 murders in a year, it's never ever been anywhere near that.

And like all your comparisons, you now want to compare the worst year you can find for us, the best year you can find for the US.

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except that burglars feel free to rob you while you shiver under the bed and you get to pray your government never goes bad.


My government still has to put me in front of a court if they want to lock me up, your's now has the power to detain you indefinately without trial.

I'd say that means I have more freedom than you. I am still subject to due process of law, you are subject to detention without trial or even charge.

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Your crime rate was going down before 96 and now it is going up.


Sorry Lazs, like almost every other statistic you have come up with, you're wrong.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #184 on: August 17, 2004, 02:16:50 PM »
Hmm... I heard that there were 50 million people in the the UK..  that would be abouit a sixth of our population.  if you have 750 murders per year... not the highest but the lowest figure that would be 4500 for here... at your highest years you are at 1000 or, 6 times that would be 6000... that is about the same as our highest and lowest years of white murder rates..

You use london as being 30% minority butr isn't it only about 5% black?    even so... my town is 67% minority it is not wven worth compar4ing your whitebread country to ours.

I don't know that my government could arrest me and detain me without trial or charge but I do know that I am free to defend myself and  my home and the criminals know it .

face it... you are subjects and victims and it is for nothing.

I would like to see the figures but I hafve heard that crime rates were going down before the 96 gun ban but are going up now... most anti gun nuts claim that it is because the government changed the way crime was reported so that they could... look worse?

lazs
« Last Edit: August 17, 2004, 02:19:01 PM by lazs2 »

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #185 on: August 17, 2004, 04:33:01 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Hmm... I heard that there were 50 million people in the the UK..  
You heard wrong.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #186 on: August 17, 2004, 05:54:22 PM »
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that would be abouit a sixth of our population.


You want to exclude the murders committed by blacks. By my reckoning, that means you should exclude the blacks from your population figures as well.

The white population of the US is 225,000,000 approx.

There are 50 million people in England and Wales.

That means your white population is 4.5 times our total population.

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You use london as being 30% minority butr isn't it only about 5% black?


No, it's a lot more than that.

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I don't know that my government could arrest me and detain me without trial or charge


Look up Jose Padilla. The government says he is a terrorist who was plotting to plant a dirty bomb.

He's a US citizen, he's been detained for over 2 years without trial or charge. He was only granted access to a lawyer after nearly 2 years in custody.

He's still in custody, still not charged, and trying yet again to get the supreme  court to order his release. They rejected it on technical grounds last time.

You might call that a free country, I don't.

In the UK, a suspected terrorist can be held without charge for 48 hours. He cannot be denied access to a lawyer after this time. A court can order detention for a futher 5 days, and hen another 7. After the end of 2 weeks he must be charged or released.

The US government position is that they have the power to detain any US citizen indefinately. After more than 2 years, the courts have yet to tell them they can't.

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face it... you are subjects


Subjects? I can't be detained unless the government have enough evidence to charge me with a serious crime. You can be detained on the say so of your president.

Who's the subject, exactly?

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I would like to see the figures but I hafve heard that crime rates were going down before the 96 gun ban but are going up now.


No doubt. Toad once heard that murders were not recorded in the UK unless someone was convicted, and that in multiple murders only 1 was recorded. That wasn't true either.

There is a lot of rubbish put out as fact by both sides of the gun debate in America.

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most anti gun nuts claim that it is because the government changed the way crime was reported so that they could... look worse?


Whatever, it was done. Look at UK crime figures and you will see a very large jump in one year, a break in the graph.

Try reading the British Crime Survey to get a more accurate picture:

http://uk.sitestat.com/homeoffice/homeoffice/s?rds.hosb1004pdf&ns_type=pdf&ns_url=%5Bhttp://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs04/hosb1004.pdf%5D

Offline demaw1

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« Reply #187 on: August 17, 2004, 06:03:29 PM »
My dear Beetle...


  I admit my grammer and spelling are at times, lacklustre. Maybe most of the time. I admit I dont know how to type/ or am just learning. Since I am trying to use my hands in the correct manner,I make many mistakes in all areas of typing.It can be very annoying to start a sentence with a capital letter, only to find out after the sentence is finished, that the first letter is small and all the other letters are caps.

 After working all day, and seeing how many other people misspell etc., I decided I did not want to take time ,fixing the messed up and turned around letters, or look up one of the rare words I dont know how to spell. Tomarrow I have to begin building a set of free hanging semi-circular stairs in a 2.9million dollar home I am building for a client. I might have a little trouble starting, as I have been told ,I dont know how to comprehend what I read. I would be greatfull if you would tell me how to begin the mathematical computations for said stairs.Sure be a help,thanks.

Offline Karnak

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« Reply #188 on: August 17, 2004, 06:13:10 PM »
What?  Somebody missing the target again?

(sorry, didn't read the thread, just the title)
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Offline Pei

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« Reply #189 on: August 17, 2004, 10:01:16 PM »
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Originally posted by Karnak
What?  Somebody missing the target again?

(sorry, didn't read the thread, just the title)


It more like a collective inability to remain on topic.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #190 on: August 18, 2004, 03:44:29 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
The US government position is that they have the power to detain any US citizen indefinately. After more than 2 years, the courts have yet to tell them they can't.

Subjects? I can't be detained unless the government have enough evidence to charge me with a serious crime. You can be detained on the say so of your president.

Who's the subject, exactly?


:eek: They're not going to like this! :lol

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #191 on: August 18, 2004, 03:46:41 AM »
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Originally posted by Pei
It more like a collective inability to remain on topic.
You mean not to change the subject. ;)

Offline wrag

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« Reply #192 on: August 18, 2004, 03:57:57 AM »
Yea England Yea????????


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=552313


You want this kinda crap for the U.S.???????

I don't think SO!  Investigated ???  WHY???

You allow this???????????

Oh wait you can't stop it...............

SORRY :(
« Last Edit: August 18, 2004, 04:00:50 AM by wrag »
It's been said we have three brains, one cobbled on top of the next. The stem is first, the reptilian brain; then the mammalian cerebellum; finally the over developed cerebral cortex.  They don't work together in awfully good harmony - hence ax murders, mobs, and socialism.

Offline beet1e

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« Reply #193 on: August 18, 2004, 04:11:36 AM »
Well Wrag, I read of a case in the US in which a burglar broke into a property through the skylight. Apparently he injured himself in his burglary attempt, and successfully sued the property owner for having a faulty skylight. :lol

Offline Russian

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« Reply #194 on: August 18, 2004, 05:19:44 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by wrag
Yea England Yea????????


http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/crime/story.jsp?story=552313


You want this kinda crap for the U.S.???????

I don't think SO!  Investigated ???  WHY???

You allow this???????????

Oh wait you can't stop it...............

SORRY :(


Same thing can happened in US. Everything depends on jury. You might be a hero or they can throw you in jail.
I hope this act will pass. Currently criminals have too many rights. Just like beetle said, when criminal gets hurt, he can sue burglarized place and win. That is pure BS....