It's not fine the way it is. . .

[DipStick]

Originally posted by GScholz
This is something I've wanted for a long time. The "base capture" war is probably just a leftover from the simple times of multiplayer air war simulation. The focus on AF capture must go; it promotes the bad game play we now have. Instead the game should focus on "battlefield capture" where the maps are divided into sectors. Each sector has a battlefield where all the adjacent vehicle spawn points lead to, and with "victory locations" that needs to be captured.

The air war will in essence be over this battlefield, but we can also do airfield denial operations like we do now. They just don't become the prime mission, and take away planes that could be used to win the war over the battlefield. Once a country has captured all the victory locations on a battlefield, that sector, and all its airfields and VHs fall to the victor, and the battle moves on to the next sector battlefield.

This system would allow for a realistic purpose for vehicles, and a more realistic use of airpower in support of ground forces. Strategic targets in nearby sectors would also add a dimension to the game play that is mostly ignored now (except the HQ bombing). Each sector could have a "HQ" or rather a ground control station. That would be more realistic and practical. We really don't need a HQ since we have no organized command structure, and the ground controls were the ones in direct communication with the planes.

This is a pretty good idea that might help promote 'fighting'.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by phookat
I think you are not considering the effects of other close bases on the defense.  Sure the vultchers can come back--and they always will regardless of distance--but the defenders can up from another close base.  So the vultchfest is easily aborted or prevented with close base spacing.

You and Dipstick (and Mars01) are entitled to your point of view, but it is diametrically opposed to mine and others like me - which is why we need both types of map in order for all tastes to be accommodated.

I maintain that if you are being vulched, and you have opposition of equal number to the vulchers, you can up in manoeuvrable planes and pick 'em off. Many of them will auger trying to bounce you, or will die killshooter deaths as they dispute whose kill you should be. If they do that on pizza, they're off the scene for at least 6 minutes. But you can re-up immediately...

...Admitttedly, there is a third way, which would be for more mannable field ack. It always pisses me off when we are trying to level the town ready for a goon, and so few people lend a hand. There'll be about 20 of 'em trying to vulch that lone Spit/N1K/LA7 that keeps popping up. They deserve to get acked!

Slapshot - no need to shout.

[Mini D]

Originally posted by Toad
Originally posted by Mini D [/i]
 I'm not putting words in your mouth here.

Sure you are.  I could go through you post line by line and show it to ya to. To what effect? You can't even admit you were wrong about lumping me in with the buffs have too much effect crowd. You assign statements/philosophies to me that I don't hold or espouse. But then that's the only way to make your argument.


Right now, I'm not playing anything. My gaming computer melted and the parts are still coming in to rebuild it. When it's back up, I'll be playing COD, some AH and a little bit of AA.
Tossing out stuff like that shows clearly that you and I are not even communicating. If that's all you think gameplay consists of there is no basis for discussion.

BS.

I notice you had to cite an example that has zero to do with choice to even try to make a point toad.  You're correct on their being no basis for discussion... but for entirely different reasons than you're citing.

You did not answer the question: CAN YOU DO WHAT YOU LIKE TO DO IN THE ARENA?  CAN YOU JUST FLY AND SHOOT?

Really? Check my sig. It's been that for years and througout all that time I HAVE espoused a "do what you like" credo here on the BBS. All I ever asked is that the game allow me to do what I like as well.

Wow... great sig toad.  Maybe you should check your posts.  What else has changed toad?  You insist it's not you.

I had great fun in AW. I had great fun in WB.   I left because I played a beta of something similar that I found even more fun.

THat's odd.  It seems to me that WB was a bit more complex than AW at the time.. and AH was a bit more complex than WB at the time.  The only real difference  was that each of the new sims had less planes.

And then... in the grand scheme of things, you never spent more than 2 years with a sim?  How long have you been with AH?  And how much different would you say the games actually are to play?  Really?  

Riddle me this Mini:

How come there are still times when the hours slip past unnoticed for me in AH? I mean even though the NUMBERS are so big, there are hordes, monotony, boredom and lack of change and I romantically dream of the past....... I can still have a total blast. A good CV furball still spins the clock for me, for example.

Think about it.

Wow... nice to see you admit it.  The odd thing is... this isn't a riddle I need to answer, it's one you need to figure out.

Why would it be that some nights you have fun and others you don't?  Could it be that some nights people are chosing to do the things you find fun and other nights they're not?  Could it be that limitting them to having what you consider to be fun might be in direct conflict with that self-righteous sig you've been touting?

nah... it must be the gameplay.

[phookat]

Originally posted by beet1e
You and Dipstick (and Mars01) are entitled to your point of view, but it is diametrically opposed to mine and others like me - which is why we need both types of map in order for all tastes to be accommodated.

Nope.  We can have a single type of map like FesterMA, which includes both types of gameplay.

Originally posted by beet1e
I maintain that if you are being vulched, and you have opposition of equal number to the vulchers, you can up in manoeuvrable planes and pick 'em off. Many of them will auger trying to bounce you, or will die killshooter deaths as they dispute whose kill you should be. If they do that on pizza, they're off the scene for at least 6 minutes. But you can re-up immediately...

Ever actually tried this on a large-spaced map, as a defender?  Your theory does not account for the facts.

[beet1e]

Originally posted by phookat
Ever actually tried this on a large-spaced map, as a defender?  Your theory does not account for the facts.

I have, and it was OK as long as the numbers were balanced to begin with, and there was no conveyor belting.

Another time I remember, at A23 on pizza, was when I was IB with a heavy P47. The enemy had their defences set up nicely - co-alt N1K,Spit, MOSS at 20K... I dumped my eggs and tried to run as all four defenders followed my dive. The MOSS got me. So then, there they all were at deck alt in the canyon - and my friends arrived at A23 at about 10K. The enemy couldn't get back into the fight. It was their mistake that it ended that way. It would have been enough for one or two of the four guys up to engage me. But no. They all had to come after me, like a junior soccer match in which the whole team goes for the ball. So for them it would have been "Waaah -  we don't have a field 2 mins away from which to launch our LA7s" - and I don't think they deserved one. It was entirely their own fault that they then could not defend against the incoming - not the fault of the map. At few of them got in GVs, so at least we were spared the forlorn cry of "waaaaaah - milkrunning undefended bases"

[DipStick]

Originally posted by beet1e
I have, and it was OK as long as the numbers were balanced to begin with, and there was no conveyor belting.

Another time I remember, at A23 on pizza, was when I was IB with a heavy P47. The enemy had their defences set up nicely - co-alt N1K,Spit, MOSS at 20K... I dumped my eggs and tried to run as all four defenders followed my dive. The MOSS got me. So then, there they all were at deck alt in the canyon - and my friends arrived at A23 at about 10K. The enemy couldn't get back into the fight. It was their mistake that it ended that way. It would have been enough for one or two of the four guys up to engage me. But no. They all had to come after me, like a junior soccer match in which the whole team goes for the ball. So for them it would have been "Waaah -  we don't have a field 2 mins away from which to launch our LA7s" - and I don't think they deserved one. It was entirely their own fault that they then could not defend against the incoming - not the fault of the map. At few of them got in GVs, so at least we were spared the forlorn cry of "waaaaaah - milkrunning undefended bases"

Why didn't you fight?

[beet1e]

Originally posted by DipStick
Why didn't you fight?

I did, the sortie before that - and landed 5 kills. But a P47D25 is no match for a turnfite against Spits, N1Ks - and as I said, I was outnumbered 4-1 at that moment. But I have studied the nature of AH dweebs, and I just knew that if I dived away, they'd all follow - leaving the base wide open for my guys, who weren't far behind. I thought I might even get away, but I didn't realise how fast that MOSS was.

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
The cycle of a game like AH being "no fun" is just part of the deal. Happened in AW, WB, ... all of 'em. At some point either you change or the game changes ... and then  it's no longer "the same."

So true... I think the solution to this is to provide choices. There are many different ways to play the game and the arena design and game function needs to accomodate these. We could have different arenas for each type of game play, but that would divide the community and some arenas would lack adequate numbers.

So, how can a single arena sustain so many different tastes? I think the AW4W and AW3 Beta era did it best. These were the days they had over 2000 players online each night, more on weekends. It should have been chaos, but the players did a pretty good job of self organization.

Game play would occur in seperate parts of the arena, each without interfering with the other. A player might grow weary of the endless furball and move to another area where more organized play was taking place. Perhaps it was a relatively small group of players doing battle over a few bases, or a group of buff enthusiasts land grabbing in a deserted corner of the arena. These were the hay days and enthusiasm didn't seem to wain as it does now.

This also happens in AH to an extent, but is constantly interfered with by the land grabbing hordes. A country with a number advantage seeks to capture the entire arena, while most in a country with low numbers are doing their own thing and do nothing to stop them. This is a severe limiting factor on game play, especially when a country gets squeezed into a small number of bases. Limitations on game play also limit variety and choices. Players become frustrated and bored with the "hampster wheel" (tm: Pasha) sooner. Perhaps this explains the failure of AH for sustained growth.

As long as arena capture by land grab exists, I fear there is no solution.

[SlapShot]

Originally posted by beet1e
You and Dipstick (and Mars01) are entitled to your point of view, but it is diametrically opposed to mine and others like me - which is why we need both types of map in order for all tastes to be accommodated.

I maintain that if you are being vulched, and you have opposition of equal number to the vulchers, you can up in manoeuvrable planes and pick 'em off. Many of them will auger trying to bounce you, or will die killshooter deaths as they dispute whose kill you should be. If they do that on pizza, they're off the scene for at least 6 minutes. But you can re-up immediately...

...Admitttedly, there is a third way, which would be for more mannable field ack. It always pisses me off when we are trying to level the town ready for a goon, and so few people lend a hand. There'll be about 20 of 'em trying to vulch that lone Spit/N1K/LA7 that keeps popping up. They deserve to get acked!

Slapshot - no need to shout.

I tell ya what Beet ...

DipStick, Leviathn, Mars, and I will fly over your base and you get 3 buddies to up with you, and we will see if you can get airborne before we run out of ammo ...  hehehe.

Augering while vulching is not as common as you make it out to be ... it factors very little into the attrition equation.

I do agree that bases should have lots more mannable acks.

[anton]

Originally posted by anton


Seeing as how I just renewed, I have the leasure of having faith that SOMTHING will change the hordes ways  BEFORE next billing cycle. Or this will be my last month as well.


Horde=Bored

Anton

Well, I have been able to find some fun. In fact last nite I was having a great time in a fair sized battle that went back & forth for hours. When I realized I was having fun, I had to stop & look at the roster to see what the numbers were like. There was less than 10 players difference on all three sides.  It was great to see & fun to fly in. I hope it continues.


Anton

[DipStick]

Originally posted by beet1e
I did, the sortie before that - and landed 5 kills. But a P47D25 is no match for a turnfite against Spits, N1Ks - and as I said, I was outnumbered 4-1 at that moment. But I have studied the nature of AH dweebs, and I just knew that if I dived away, they'd all follow - leaving the base wide open for my guys, who weren't far behind. I thought I might even get away, but I didn't realise how fast that MOSS was.

So you took one for the team eh? Hehehe I would've fought. Might not have won, probably not but still would have gave it a go. You never know Beet. I have killed alot of spits and niks in my jug. The more you fight at a disadvantage the more you learn.

PS... Mossies are real fast on a downhill run.

[DoKGonZo]

Originally posted by Grizzly
...
As long as arena capture by land grab exists, I fear there is no solution.

Again, I've only been back a short while, but the sense I get is that the quest for perk points has become a little too dominant a theme. And whenever individual scores overshadow team accomplishments, you will see people optimize their style of play towards this. Only natural. Which is why you see vultches going on with apparently no attempt being made to take the field. It's all about racking up multi-kill sorties to get more perks. At least that's how I interpret it. Which also is nothing new to the genre.

Unfortunately, this dynamic only seems to exaggerate the gap between people who play constantly and those who don't. Perks are a great way to balance uber-planes, but there is a cost to gameplay. As things stand now, you can get more fighter perks in a couple hours of vultching than you would for a whole weekend's work trying to win a reset. So I don't know if the concern about "land grabbers" is all that justified - the payoff for a MA reset is pretty negligable.



If field capture isn't the objective in the arena, then what would be? The nice thing about field capture is it keeps things more or less fluid and it provides a mechanism for rotating through various terrain maps. And to be fair, I don't see how changing the arena objectives would stop Horde Warrior. We had that in AW when there were no fields to capture at all. The trick is making it less beneficial a tactic.


So ... what if you did something like: harden all groud targets to be impervious to gunfire below 20mm, and also harden field assets to need 2x or 3x the number of bomb hits to go down, and make winning a reset worth 125 perks in each category. Now winning a reset has meaning but you can no longer capture a field with just Jabo's - you need attack bombers in there ... meaing it won't be all fighters overhead anymore. This is just an example ... not saying it is "the answer" ... but by just changing a few little things you can something get pretty big changes in overall gameplay.

[phookat]

Originally posted by beet1e
I have, and it was OK as long as the numbers were balanced to begin with, and there was no conveyor belting.

There is *always* conveyor belting, regardless of base spacing.  You are under the erroneous impression that having an extra 5 min flying time between bases is going to stop people from joining a conveyor belt horde.  It doesn't.  They have nothing better to do--if they don't log off, they'll join the horde like they always do.

Furthermore, once again, your theory does not explain the facts.  The facts are that large-spaced maps are filled with hordes, and small-spaced maps are filled with fights (both big and small).

But this discussion is actually not really necessary.  Some people like large-spacing and others don't.  The solution is a map that has both large- and small-spacing, such as FesterMA.  Wouldn't you agree?

[X2Lee]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
What we have in AH2 is a very good balance. Even if radar gets bombed, it just takes half a dozen people to stop furballing for 20 minutes to resupply it and it's usually right back up. .

well thats not the way it is in the current setup. If HQ is bombed down to 90% you dont have dar and you cannot resupply it for (2 hours)?

BS....   make it so u can resupply the damned thing.

[Grizzly]

Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Again, I've only been back a short while, but the sense I get is that the quest for perk points has become a little too dominant a theme. And whenever individual scores overshadow team accomplishments, you will see people optimize their style of play towards this. Only natural. Which is why you see vultches going on with apparently no attempt being made to take the field. It's all about racking up multi-kill sorties to get more perks. At least that's how I interpret it. Which also is nothing new to the genre.

I don't think perk points play such a large role. More likely players like to capture the arena to crush the opposition into the dirt. I think you can identify with that. =o)

These problems have always been a part of our game. But I think it's amplified in AH. Notice how most players attack a base by avoiding opposition to suicide jabbo a tool shed (rinse and repeat). It indemic to the way the game is set up. The large horde attack is the most efficient way to capture real estate, and dogfighting only slows it down.

All the incentive needed is a single base to fight over (the keyword here is fight). There can be some bases to capture, so these guys can do it without messing up the whole game. Players can meet between a couple bases for the never ending furball, if they choose. Buffs can try to hit strat targets and interceptors try to stop them. That's the way it was, and IMHO the way it should be. Something for everyone without wrecking the fun of others.

But I know most players will insist on the option of arena capture, it's legit and who am I to speak against it. That's why I proposed basing the compromise of basing the arena capture (and reset) on a threshold of destruction to the enemy country. It still requires attacking bases and factories, provides a solid role for the buff drivers, encourages team work, rewards the winner (including their perks), and pisses off the loser. But does not destroy the arena for the game play of others up until the reset.

The capture the flag players get their reset. And those who don't wish to participate have their bases to fly from without having a swarm of grabbers pass through laying waste to everything in their wake like locusts. How can that not be a good thing?