Extreme Prejudice

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Huh?
What game you playing?
How was the strat modified to that extent?
Sure HTC changed the city a bit and made it alot harder for a small number of people to quickly capture a base.

A number of things: 1) Reduced the number of barracks at each field (towns no longer have a barracks, 2) reduced the effectiveness of airfield ack, thereby making it easy for a single fighter to kill barracks and 3) greatly increased the number of town buildings (which means than sneak captures are rare.)

For example, I frequently up a 262 and kill the barracks at 3 fields.  It was impossible to do this in AH1 due to the accuracy of airfield ack.

Obviously, I'm playing a different game than you.

curly

[Overlag]

Originally posted by AKcurly


For example, I frequently up a 262 and kill the barracks at 3 fields.  It was impossible to do this in AH1 due to the accuracy of airfield ack.


curly

only 3? i got 6 last night in one sorty in a mossie...rooks didnt seem to care about this silly wooden thing with all that ord.........oh and then i shot down a nik to boot, before running out of fuel 2 miles from base  still got 20 perks....oh god i love the 1.8 perk modifier we had........

[Simaril]

Originally posted by AKcurly

It meant that you, as a new person, shouting that "hey, there are bombers inbound" had incorrectly priortized the available tasks and the wiser heads than you had to decided to attack another threat. .....

Since we are talking about chess pieces and not culture, it's safe to assume the above paragraph means one thing: You prefer to be with the country who has the largest numbers.  You should remember the old adage "what goes around, comes around."  The wheel will indeed turn and then I'll get to watch Simaril scurry to the side with the advantage and spout similar self-serving garbage as the post I just read about his new side........



You simply lack the perspective that time provides.  Prior to November 2002 (for about a year), Knights had superior numbers and yes, we were blessed with numerous postings such as yours about the quality of Knight strategy/skill/whatever.  Prior to November 2001 (approximately), Bishops had superior numbers, and again, we got to listen to the same sort of crap from them....

I know because we were rotating among all three countries.  We ended up Bishop semi-permanently simply because they had the smallest numbers......

There are no advantages to one country, all things equal.  It is amusing to read posts like this.  There's very little that can occur in Aces High that I haven't seen, but it's always interesting to watch folks justify their reasons for inappropriate behavior.  Since you are a newcomer, I'll simply mark your reaction down to ignorance rather than anti-social behavior. ......

curly

Frankly, Curly, I'm stunned by the naked arrogance in your post -- especially from a guy who's spend years as a teacher. Closed minds are supposed to be more a marker of ignorance than knowledge, and you spent your career in "higher" education if I recall. I personally find that teaching new students keeps me sharp, as all that new blood keeps challenging my preconceptions. Makes one wonder where you're coming from, cause you were anything but open to me...

Reread my post -- I never claimed rooks were superior as pilots. In fact, I pretty much said the opposite, that there were excellent pilots in every country.  In the context of this thread, which heavily discussed reasons for the numbers imbalance, I said my experience might shed some light on why newbies might be prone to the rooks. Like it or not, not everyone is as experienced and talented as you are. Oh, and for clarification -- I switched WITH MY SQUAD in my second month,which March '04. (I didnt join BBS till May.)

I'm not sure what planet you fly on, but in AH there's very little action based on "wiser heads prioritizing." Witness the way rooks can have huge numbers advantages but still not take a base for 3 hours. I used bombers inbound as an example, but it was actually much more common to see the (no doubt less talented and intelligent than you) Bish around me try to take a base for 20 minutes without bothering to get the VH at all, with defending vehicles continually interfering. Needless to say, if you keep getting Osties in the town you're not takin no base nohow. I guess I fail to see how wiser heads can justify that.

And, despite your blithe assertion, I do not prefer to be part of the horde. I generally look for boxes with essentially equal numbers, for the obvious reason that I cant find anything to shoot at when the swarm of locusts descends. In the middle of a horde, mid range players can't get to the victims fast enough to get a shot -- the vets work their magic and blast 'em long before we'd be ready.

Your comment about the uselessness of the morning for strat reasons also ignores the reality that even with the numbers the rooks are often ineffective strategically. You're just spouting a variant of the traditional numbers whine. I may not call you a producer of "self serving garbage," mostly because numbers whines are just regurgitated repetitiveness.

What you're missing in my post was the emphasis on the REASONS for the imbalance. I didn't have fun as a bish, not because I like outnumbering people but because as a bish I always felt alone -- and frustrated at the strategic and tactical decisions I SAW made around me. I may have been new to AH, but I've played strategy war games since Panzer Blitz was brand new. I even remember when SSI only made boxed games, and when computer games came in baggies. Don't assume that because I didn't play AW1 I must be an idiot.

You've been a bish long enough for calcification to set in, and you have a network of relationships. I never said NO ONE can have fun as a bish. But at least consider the possibility that people leave the bish not because they want to outnumber people, but because, say, rook strangers will call 6's and include new guys in their flights. I find people going out of their way to include me as a rook. I even had one guy this week give up a kill to let me have the satisfaction of downing the last of a bomber trio that jumped my supply goon a few minutes earlier. (Bombers running for home popped over a ridge directly above my NOE goon in a "safe" sector, and only had to press the trigger to make a goon flambe'. Grrr.)

that's what I find as a rook. If you enjoy being a bish, I'm honestly happy for you, and I'm sorry if somehow you took my first post as a personal slight. I only wanted to point out that there are other, non-random factors that affect country distribution.

Again, curly, I have to say that I'm disappointed in the arrogant disrespect you demonstrated towards my comments. I'd expected a bit higher level of interaction from you.

[Zazen13]

Originally posted by Simaril

And, despite your blithe assertion, I do not prefer to be part of the horde. I generally look for boxes with essentially equal numbers, for the obvious reason that I cant find anything to shoot at when the swarm of locusts descends. In the middle of a horde, mid range players can't get to the victims fast enough to get a shot -- the vets work their magic and blast 'em long before we'd be ready.

This is incredibly important for people to understand. Being in a horde, especially a horde in great disproportion to the enemy is NOT in any way, shape, or form conducive to getting easier kills, more kills, or even any kills at all. In fact, as Simaril points out, you have to be PERFECT in your timing, aim and tactical positioning to have a snowball's chance in hell of getting a kill at all. Your upper-echelon players will be getting the vast majority of the kills, your average player is going to STARVE to death for kills in this situation.

It is for this reason most prefer to be at least locally even, or even preferably, locally out-numbered by a small margin.
With all things warlike there is the omnipresent risk/reward balance. A big, one-sided horde means very little risk, but also very little potential reward for your average person.

Zazen

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by Simaril
Frankly, Curly, I'm stunned by the naked arrogance in your post

Perhaps, but it certainly wasn't intended to be arrogant.  Not that it matters at all, but I listened to the rooks whine & complain for over two years about low numbers.  I used to constantly get private messages from Rooks complaining if the AKs attacked rooks (because of low numbers on the rook side.)

The Knights had a good run on numbers that lasted over a year and there were Knights everywhere offering advice on why people were flying Knights.

And now, the rooks have had a good run (over 1.5 years) and once again, I'm hearing "good advice."  Perhaps I've had my fill of "good advice."

There are essentially 3 types of players: a) guys who furball, b) guys who play for strat, and c) quake type fellows.   Well, actually 4, but the fighter sweep guys are fairly rare now.  Anyway, when one side achieves a temporary numbers advantage, the quake type (for the most part) move to the side with the numbers advantage.

I'm not sure what planet you fly on, but in AH there's very little action based on "wiser heads prioritizing." Witness the way rooks can have huge numbers advantages but still not take a base for 3 hours. I used bombers

Yes and that's because there's a significant group of Bishops/Knights (whoever) that are killing troops.  No troops, no base capture.

On any given night, there will be a number of new guys (guys who haven't quite figured out the strat situation.)  It takes a while to become comfortable with it I suppose.  Now, suppose new guy x says "threat y" is coming and I know that I should ignore threat y and concentrate on something else.  What am I supposed to do?  If I take the time to type a response, I'll be typing all night because that type of question comes up in the country channel every minute or so.  

The way to learn the game is join a squad.  If you like to furball, then join a furball squad; similarly for strat stuff.  The squad will tell you what is important.

And, despite your blithe assertion, I do not prefer to be part of the horde. I generally look for boxes with essentially equal numbers, for the obvious reason that I cant find anything to shoot at when the swarm of locusts descends. In the middle of a horde, mid range players can't get to the victims fast enough to get a shot -- the vets work their magic and blast 'em long before we'd be ready.

I believe you, but the hoarde persists and it pretty much screws up the game for both strat and furball types.

What you're missing in my post was the emphasis on the REASONS for the imbalance. I didn't have fun as a bish, not because I like outnumbering people but because as a bish I always felt alone -- and frustrated at the strategic and tactical decisions I SAW made around me. I may have been new to AH, but I've played strategy war games since Panzer Blitz was brand new. I even remember when SSI only made boxed games, and when computer games came in baggies. Don't assume that because I didn't play AW1 I must be an idiot.

I never played AW any flavor.  And, had you joined a Bish squad, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

You've been a bish long enough for calcification to set in, and you have a network of relationships. I never said NO ONE can have fun as a bish. But at least consider the possibility that people leave the bish not because they want to outnumber people, but because, say, rook strangers will call 6's and include new guys in their flights.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, you are wrong about 6 calls.  Many of us have flown for all three countries for extended periods of time.  There are no differences among the countries.  All countries call sixes.  I'm not saying you're lying, but you flew bish when you were new and joined a squad towards the end, right?  New guys who are not in a squad are dead meat.

that's what I find as a rook. If you enjoy being a bish, I'm honestly happy for you, and I'm sorry if somehow you took my first post as a personal slight. I only wanted to point out that there are other, non-random factors that affect country distribution.

And once again, there is exactly one factor which affects country distribution:  Numbers attract numbers until an unusual circumstance changes the distribution.  It's not quality of sticks, quality of planning, generosity of country mates or any of those items.  It is sheer numbers.  We lost a squad member last week because he said "he was tired of flying on the outnumbered side.  He wanted to be on the side with greater numbers."  It's a common attitude.

curly

[Simaril]

Originally posted by AKcurly
I believe you, but the hoarde persists and it pretty much screws up the game for both strat and furball types.curly

I sense this is a big part of the bitter streak I read in your posts. And, as it seems numbers are a major issue for you, I wonder if the numbers issue has blinded you to even the possibility that anything else could be palying a role.

Originally posted by AKcurly
I never played AW any flavor.  And, had you joined a Bish squad, we wouldn't be having this conversation.curly [/B]

Umm, think about it Curly -- I did join a bish squad, about a week after starting AH.

Originally posted by AKcurly
At the risk of sounding arrogant, you are wrong about 6 calls.  Many of us have flown for all three countries for extended periods of time.  There are no differences among the countries.  All countries call sixes.  I'm not saying you're lying, but you flew bish when you were new and joined a squad towards the end, right?  New guys who are not in a squad are dead meat.curly [/B]

You seem to keep focusing on the easy issue and ignoring the more challenging ones. Neither inbound bombers or 6 calls are my central point. I also mentioned bits about failing to do obvious things like hit the Vh when vehicles are a problem. When I see rooks go after  base, there seems to be an institutional informal organization about it -- somebody gets the VH, somebody clears the ack, then people go after the town. Attack rides call out "what needs eggs" when they arrive on station. Never saw this as a bish. And,, hey, it just feels good to have guys pull off to let you get a kill. Seen that much on your side?

Also, curly, you're forgetting about cultural shift. You've been a bish for a long while, and an intelligent person would have to consider that things may have changed since you were last there.

Originally posted by AKcurly
And once again, there is exactly one factor which affects country distribution:  Numbers attract numbers until an unusual circumstance changes the distribution.  It's not quality of sticks, quality of planning, generosity of country mates or any of those items.  It is sheer numbers.  We lost a squad member last week because he said "he was tired of flying on the outnumbered side.  He wanted to be on the side with greater numbers."  It's a common attitude.
curly [/B]

Here comes that arrogance thing again -- how can you possibly know that "there is exactly one thing" affecting country distribution? My whole point is that something else may be going on, and many old hands (regardlless of AW membership) like you just dont want to consider the possibility.

Let's just play a game here, and pretend that someone other than Curly might have a worthwhile idea. Lets imagine that a year ago, a few rooks are more open to organized activities, and have the initiative to make things happen. They know the furballers aren't going to go along, but they gather others with like minds and organize missions, with formalized high and low cover, etc. This attracts other fliers who enjoy that organized style, and before long they take the next step -- joint squad operations, with base targets assigned by squad, fighter squads providing cover, etc all along a front.

People who like this stuff are impressed. Bish and Nits who don't see this level of organization at home consider switching. But, the majority stay put. Over time, the guys who like higher level of organization preferentially stay longer on the rook side. Rook numbers climb AT THAT POINT, as randomness is superimposed on nonrandom factors. Once the disparity gets annoying, the last phase occurs --people who follow the numbers switch to catch up with an already established wave.

You're a math guy, so I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of selection bias. This is how selection bias works outside of the classroom -- groups become nonrandom based on human choices influenced by a factor extraneous to the study design. You may not like it, but it happens in the messy reality outisde the classroom.

Curly, you've openly said that you already know the answer and you're not open to any other opinions. I can understand how a math teacher could feel that way (2+2 isnt open for discussion), but I'd hope you have the epidemiologic background to see that a host of factors interact when large numbers of humans get involved. In any case, I'm glad I wasnt in your classroom.

[AKcurly]

Originally posted by Simaril
I sense this is a big part of the bitter streak I read in your posts. And, as it seems numbers are a major issue for you, I wonder if the numbers issue has blinded you to even the possibility that anything else could be palying a role.


 

Umm, think about it Curly -- I did join a bish squad, about a week after starting AH.


 

You seem to keep focusing on the easy issue and ignoring the more challenging ones. Neither inbound bombers or 6 calls are my central point. I also mentioned bits about failing to do obvious things like hit the Vh when vehicles are a problem. When I see rooks go after  base, there seems to be an institutional informal organization about it -- somebody gets the VH, somebody clears the ack, then people go after the town. Attack rides call out "what needs eggs" when they arrive on station. Never saw this as a bish. And,, hey, it just feels good to have guys pull off to let you get a kill. Seen that much on your side?

Also, curly, you're forgetting about cultural shift. You've been a bish for a long while, and an intelligent person would have to consider that things may have changed since you were last there.




Here comes that arrogance thing again -- how can you possibly know that "there is exactly one thing" affecting country distribution? My whole point is that something else may be going on, and many old hands (regardlless of AW membership) like you just dont want to consider the possibility.

Let's just play a game here, and pretend that someone other than Curly might have a worthwhile idea. Lets imagine that a year ago, a few rooks are more open to organized activities, and have the initiative to make things happen. They know the furballers aren't going to go along, but they gather others with like minds and organize missions, with formalized high and low cover, etc. This attracts other fliers who enjoy that organized style, and before long they take the next step -- joint squad operations, with base targets assigned by squad, fighter squads providing cover, etc all along a front.

People who like this stuff are impressed. Bish and Nits who don't see this level of organization at home consider switching. But, the majority stay put. Over time, the guys who like higher level of organization preferentially stay longer on the rook side. Rook numbers climb AT THAT POINT, as randomness is superimposed on nonrandom factors. Once the disparity gets annoying, the last phase occurs --people who follow the numbers switch to catch up with an already established wave.

You're a math guy, so I'm sure you're familiar with the concept of selection bias. This is how selection bias works outside of the classroom -- groups become nonrandom based on human choices influenced by a factor extraneous to the study design. You may not like it, but it happens in the messy reality outisde the classroom.

Curly, you've openly said that you already know the answer and you're not open to any other opinions. I can understand how a math teacher could feel that way (2+2 isnt open for discussion), but I'd hope you have the epidemiologic background to see that a host of factors interact when large numbers of humans get involved. In any case, I'm glad I wasnt in your classroom.

I'm not fond of exchanging personal attacks, so I think I'll bow out of this one.

curly

[Simaril]

Curly, I apologize if my response stooped to the level of personal attack. That is inappropriate on my part. Forgive me.

.