for Lazs: Crime rates down in NZ

[Curval]

"Whites have more to fear from blacks with guns than vice versa... more than twice as much in fact.. "

Care to comment on the quote above?

[lazs2]

Thank you for the opportunity.... yes, I am happy to comment on the quote.

FBI stats for 2002 show that in homicide rates.... 14% of all the whites that are murdered are murdered by blacks.

The exact same table for 2002 homicide rates shows that 7% of all blacks murdered are murdered by whites.

this equates to whites being TWICE as likely to be murdered by blacks than blacks being murdered by whites.

it is merely the stats taken from the FBI crime stats site for 2002 and was first linked by nashwan soo....

if you see bigotry or racism there then it is nashwan or the FBI that is to blame.

lazs

[Curval]

Originally posted by lazs2
2. biased devotion to any group, attitude, or cause."

don't see bigot in there anywhere..

You aren't looking hard enough.

Now get out your Websters Thesarus and check out bigotry.

[lazs2]

"bigotry    n.At one time or another, every race and religion has been the object of bigotry: prejudice, intolerance, bias, narrow-mindedness, closed-mindedness; racism, discrimination, unfairness. "

kinda vague.

but... what about that makes me guilty of bigotry?

It would apear that you are the one guilty of bigotry since it involves ALL races and has to do with discrimination and unfairness... both of which I believe you have been guilty of with your advocating special treatment for some races.

lazs

[Dune]

It would be biggotry to say that the reason crime is so high amongst blacks is becuase they are an inferior race and they do not have as high mental or moral functions as white people.

That is a blatently racist statement.

Pointing out that the crime/murder/gun violence/children born out of wedlock/poverty/drug use/etc. rates are higher among blacks than white is not racist.  It is a fact.

And until people like the bleeding hearts and the NAACP pulls their heads out of their tulips and sees that, the underlying problems that are the cause will never be addressed.  Or fixed.

For the billioneth time.  Guns do not cause crime.  Poverty, lack of education, lack of a family structure, lack of hope, drugs...these cause crime.  Crime which will occur whether or not there are guns.  

And guess what, if you live in a homogenous society with without these problems, you are not going to have the same rate of crime.  

I'm sorry, but when people use guns as a scapegoat because they either don't or can't take the time to address the underlying problem, it shows them to be either disengenious, ignorant or lazy.  Or all three.

[GtoRA2]

I am with Laz and Dune on this one.


Numbers are not racist as long as the people gathering them have no ajenda. I do not think the FBI has a racist ajenda.

[Curval]

Numbers are not in and of themselves racist, I will grant you that.

Using numbers to point fingers at one specific race as being the cause of all the crime in ones country, without taking into account all of the underlying socioeconomic reasons for those statistics is, however, very much racist.

As Dune so eloquently put it:

"Poverty, lack of education, lack of a family structure, lack of hope, drugs...these cause crime."

So, why are those stats even mentioned in this context of "Whites have more to fear from blacks with guns than vice versa... more than twice as much in fact.. " ?

Ask yourself that.

[Dune]

Because looking the presence of guns in relation to crime without looking at those is just as bad as looking at the numbers without the cause of the numbers.

Want to reduce gun crime?  Reduce the reasons people committ them.  Don't get me wrong, there is a portion of the population that is going to commit crimes no matter what you do.  They lack some part of themselves that the rest of us have.  It has nothing to do with race.  It just is.  However, if the population that surrounds them is living in conditions that make them susceptible to their influcence, the crime rate amoung that segment of the population will be higher.

Saying you're fighting crime by removing guns is the same as saying you're fighting cancer by giving the victim make-up.  On the surface it make look better, but the underlying cause is still there.  And the patient is still dying.

Why do we ask that you look at Switzerland as an example of a country that is armed to the teeth and yet has a low crime rate?  Because it is a homogenious society without many of the ills that plague more diversified countries like the US or the UK.  Countries like New Zealand or Switzerland would have similar crime rates no matter if there weren't any guns or each person over 5 owed 6 of 'em.  

But if you take a country like the UK or Australia and remove guns, are you dealing with the underlying problem?  Of the Jamacian gangs or the unflux of the Asian drug trade?  Nope.  So their crime rates rise or stay the same becuase only the law-abiding citizens have given up their guns.

But guns are big and scawy.  And it's so much easier to blame them for the problem than to actually fix it.  Fools.

[Curval]

Originally posted by lazs2
"bigotry    n.At one time or another, every race and religion has been the object of bigotry: prejudice, intolerance, bias, narrow-mindedness, closed-mindedness; racism, discrimination, unfairness. "

kinda vague.

but... what about that makes me guilty of bigotry?

It would apear that you are the one guilty of bigotry since it involves ALL races and has to do with discrimination and unfairness... both of which I believe you have been guilty of with your advocating special treatment for some races.

lazs

Odd...my thesarus has one more word in it....chauvinism.  Not vaugue at all.

I'm sorry, but when and where have I EVER advocated special treatment for some races?

[lazs2]

my comments on black and white murder rates were in response to michell moores bowling for columbine where he portrayed whites as murdering KKK types who only had guns so that they could murder blacks and portrayed blacks in detroit as peaceful carnival goers when they visited canada.   He also tried to prove that whites were perfectly safe roaming the streets of sout central los angeles.

the stats show that blacks have 15 times more to fear from each other than from whites and that they kill whjites at twice the rate that whites kill blacks.   Unlike dune.... I have no real answers as to why this is true but suspect that he is on the right track.

lazs

[GtoRA2]

Laz
 Maybe you should be really long winded in all your posts now so you can avoid the PC police!

[lazs2]

GTO... drawing em out is half the fun...

lazs

[Horn]

Originally posted by Dune
Because looking the presence of guns in relation to crime without looking at those is just as bad as looking at the numbers without the cause of the numbers.

Want to reduce gun crime?  Reduce the reasons people committ them.  Don't get me wrong, there is a portion of the population that is going to commit crimes no matter what you do.  They lack some part of themselves that the rest of us have.  It has nothing to do with race.  It just is.  However, if the population that surrounds them is living in conditions that make them susceptible to their influcence, the crime rate amoung that segment of the population will be higher.

Saying you're fighting crime by removing guns is the same as saying you're fighting cancer by giving the victim make-up.  On the surface it make look better, but the underlying cause is still there.  And the patient is still dying.

Why do we ask that you look at Switzerland as an example of a country that is armed to the teeth and yet has a low crime rate?  Because it is a homogenious society without many of the ills that plague more diversified countries like the US or the UK.  Countries like New Zealand or Switzerland would have similar crime rates no matter if there weren't any guns or each person over 5 owed 6 of 'em.  

But if you take a country like the UK or Australia and remove guns, are you dealing with the underlying problem?  Of the Jamacian gangs or the unflux of the Asian drug trade?  Nope.  So their crime rates rise or stay the same becuase only the law-abiding citizens have given up their guns.

But guns are big and scawy.  And it's so much easier to blame them for the problem than to actually fix it.  Fools.

Holy moly I completely agree. Good post.

...and woe to all those thousands of "terrorists" coming up from the border to Colorado--their only safe haven will be Boulder. The rest of us are armed to the teeth; that is, what's left after the Texans are done w/ 'em. Welcome to the West.

h

[Curval]

Originally posted by Dune
But guns are big and scawy.  And it's so much easier to blame them for the problem than to actually fix it.  Fools.

It was a good post, other than the last word.  You see the problem is that the US is NOT fixing the underlying problem.  Instead you arm yourselves to the teeth, hide behind the guns and point fingers at the stats and say "look at those darn Jamaicans, Asians, etc etc messing up our nice white country."

[Dune]

I agree the US is not fixing the problem.  Which was my point.  Just as other countries are dealing with an influx of either a criminal element which is able to find a foothold in the poorer areas.  

And this also has nothing to do with arming ourselves to the teeth for protection.  This is about something we considered to be a inalienable right.  It's ours.  And we react just as we would if someone tried to take away our right to free speech because someone is misusing it.

And you're falling into the same old trap.  I say that there is a problem in our countries that you don't see in places like Switzerland.  And your response was to imply that I was bemoaning the loss of my "lilly white" societ.  Dammit, that isn't the point.  I'm saying look here.  Here is a problem.  And it's worse in this segment of society.  Why?  It isn't a lack of intellegence or work ethic or ability.  So then what is it?  Does there need to be a complete change in ideas?  In cultural attitudes?  I am not saying I have the answers.  But I know where the problem is and where it isn't.  The problem is in the homes and neighborhoods and schools and hearts and minds of people who don't think they have a chance, or have been raised in a world that idolizes gangsters and pimps and drugs and the thuglife.  It's in a society, regardless of color, that leaves it's kids to be raised by grandparents.  And doesn't want to learn.  Doesn't believe they could suceed at anything.  That's where this problem is.  It is a societal ill.  The problem is not a piece of steel.  It is not the device they use to project hate and hopelessness and anger and dispair.  It is what causes those emotions to be there in the first place.  Because if you take that gun away, the emotions will still be there.  You will have solved nothing.  Nothing.

We are not fixing the problem.  Because that would mean taking a hard look at it.  Making sacrifices.  More things than I have time to type.  

But in the meantime, we are going to rail against those who would punnish us, law-abiding citizens, rather than fix what's wrong.