Author Topic: Suicide diving level bombers  (Read 3054 times)

Offline ace31st

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #30 on: August 28, 2004, 06:58:09 PM »
cant tell whether that is sarcasm or not heh

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #31 on: August 28, 2004, 07:02:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Stang
The entire problem with bombing in the MA personified right here.  Can't believe it.  Wow.


Yup.

I like the idea of different bomber limits when in formation mode.

But lets remember that taking stuff away isn't the only answer. I feel that one reason these tactics, plus the lawn-dart jabos and Me110 CV-killers, are so rampant is that there's no better alternative. So if things are done to clamp down on these tactics (which do suck), something needs to be done to make true attack bombers and attack fighters seriously viable alternatives.

Once SBD's, A20's, and Sturmis become the serious threat to ships, fields, and GV's that they should be, they'll be used - and defended against.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #32 on: August 28, 2004, 07:06:48 PM »
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i guess you dont understand the purpose of noe bomb runs, YOU CANT BE detected on radar, which means you got total surprise on the nme, whereas if your overt 500 ft you can be detected and nme fighters have time to scramle to intercept you.


 You don't understand the purpose of heavy buffs in the first place. We use jabo plane for that role, not the buffs.

 Besides, what to keep you from doing the same thing in the F6 position? Just do a messy calibration, and drop the bombs when the field is nearby.

 Ofcourse, you wouldn't be able to do the twsity turning drops, or speeding dive-bomb drops.. but likewise, that's it how it should be.

Offline ace31st

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« Reply #33 on: August 28, 2004, 07:09:08 PM »
jabo planes for noe bomb runs? no i dont think so.
 
what do you think the lancasters did when they took out the dam? they flew noe cause they didnt want to be detected. bombers are built for both purposes,  i.e b-1b lancer  does noe bomb runs.

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #34 on: August 28, 2004, 07:12:34 PM »
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jabo planes for noe bomb runs? no i dont think so.

what do you think the lancasters did when they took out the dam? they flew noe cause they didnt want to be detected. bombers are built for both purposes, i.e b-1b lancer does noe bomb runs.


 So, how many dam-busting sorties did Lancasters see, comapred to all of the other sorties with a normal bomb run?

 It's kinda pathetic. The only one or two reference one could find among all the rest of the data which clearly presents the bombers, should be used as they were designed to.

 And you still haven't answered the second question. You can do the same thing in the bombardier's seat if one really wants to. Basically the 'role', is still there if one wishes it. But it won't be so easy to do it by abusing the F3 views. One will have to calibrate it.

Offline ace31st

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« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2004, 07:15:31 PM »
ok how about the b25s on the raid of japan. noe

HT probably wouldnt do that anyways because he would want to keep some fun in the bombing. i dunno just my opinion

Offline Kweassa

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« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2004, 07:36:19 PM »
Admit it dude.

 You don't want calibration, or restriction - because you don't want to learn it. You don't want to grab alt, you don't want to plan flightpaths, you don't want to practice at all.

 What you want is quick results with no effort. Dying in the process doesn't bother you. Getting the job done is all you care about - and why do it in a historic, proper, correct fashion, when you can just go semi-kamikaze to the target?

 The restriction I suggested does not stop the person from doing a NOE run. It just stops them from doing the dweebey shi* of dive-bombing, twisty-turning, and pitch-up spraying.

 One shouldn't have any problems if you like low-level bombing itself, in a tactical sense.

 However, if someone loves the dweebey shi* about low-level bombing. then he's gonna have a lot of problems. And rightfully so.

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #37 on: August 28, 2004, 07:36:43 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ace31st
ok how about the b25s on the raid of japan. noe
...


That was done once in the whole war (flying medium bomber from a CV with little or no chance of landing on the soil of a third country), and you want to install it as a permanent feature in the MA????

Now the B25G/H was a ground attack version ... which was properly equiped for low-altitude operations ... including para-frags and everything. That is a completely different animal. Likewise Mosi's did a lot of anti-shipping duty ... NOE. But Lancs and B17's were mostly up above 10K ... and usually hated being below 15K.

Offline ace31st

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« Reply #38 on: August 28, 2004, 07:47:44 PM »
hmm ok guess you dont remember me but when i did my noe bomb runs  i would usually live to rtb with a couple kills. and also i was quite good at high alt bombing to but i just preferred noe on a base. now if the base was swarming with fighters i would go high alot but otherwise at an undefended base i go low.

i cant win here because so many people love high alt.

Offline ace31st

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« Reply #39 on: August 28, 2004, 07:49:53 PM »
and newsflash kweassa, this is a game, it doesnt have to be done to the exact detail of how ww2 bombers would do it. HT is  not going to penalize people for there style of play. if you want historic , why dont you go do a 3 hour bomb run, drop ord, get swarmed by fighters and maybe live to return home.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #40 on: August 28, 2004, 08:15:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ace31st
and newsflash kweassa, this is a game, it doesnt have to be done to the exact detail of how ww2 bombers would do it. ...


Bzzzt .... you just finished siting two cases of actual WW2 operations as justification for your low-level tactics. You can't have it both ways.

Offline ace31st

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« Reply #41 on: August 28, 2004, 08:17:09 PM »
that made no sense. im saying historical bomb runs are like that....

Offline Krusty

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« Reply #42 on: August 28, 2004, 08:56:55 PM »
I'm not going to get dragged into this, but point of order:

The Doolittle raid was PLANNED to have then land in Mongolia somewhere, but the CV group was spotted by a spy/fishing vessel. Rather than risk the ENTIRE CV group, all the pilots volunteered to take off 800 miles out of range (and in fact did make it to bomb Japan, and had they taken off where they planned to, they would have had enough fuel to land).


Sorry, and now back to your pre-programed fight.

Offline TheCage

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« Reply #43 on: August 28, 2004, 09:29:38 PM »
.
Quote
What you want is quick results with no effort. Dying in the process doesn't bother you. Getting the job done is all you care about - and why do it in a historic, proper, correct fashion, when you can just go semi-kamikaze to the target?


Historic Truth in the Proper, Correct fashion........

One of the more successful field modifications performed on the B-25Cs and Ds were conversions to heavily-armed strafers.

The basic concept for the strafer seems to have originated with B-25 units based in Australia. Medium-altitude bombing attacks against Japanese shipping had not been all that successful, since most of the bombs tended to miss their targets. This was due partly to the fact that medium and high-altitude bombing was subject to inherent errors in accuracy due to uncertain winds and to difficulties in sighting, but also due to the fact that ships could often see the bombs coming their way and had enough time to get out of their path. General Kenney felt that the development of skip-bombing techniques would give a much better chance of success. In skip bombing, the pilot approaches the target ship at a speed of 200 mph and at an altitude no higher than 250 feet off the water. Releasing the bomb at that height or lower caused it to skip off the water and slam into the ship just above the waterline, giving a much better chance of a hit than conventional bombing from medium altitudes. However, this technique required a low-level straight-on approach against intense antiarcraft fire from heavily-armed ships. It was felt that heavy forward-aimed firepower aboard the attacking aircraft was needed to counter this defensive fire.

This technique had already been tried out to a limited extent with the A-20 Havoc, but the A-20 had a relatively low bombload and a limited range. In addition, there was a severe shortage of A-20s in Australia and in the entire South Pacific due to the priority of Lend-Lease deliveries to the Soviet Union. The idea of modifying the B-25 as a "strafer" seems to have originated with NAA field service representative Jack Fox and Major Paul I. "Pappy" Gunn of the 3rd Bombardment Group. Fox and Gunn satisfied General Kenney that this was an idea worth trying, and the General gave them authorization to proceed.

B-25C serial number 41-12437 was chosen for the initial tests. Since in a low-level, high-speed attack the bombs would be released by the pilot, there was no need for a bombardier. Consequently, the bombardier position was removed and replaced with a package of four fixed 0.50-inch machine guns with 500 rpg and aimed directly forward. The guns protruded from a metal plate that replaced the flat bomb-aiming panel. In addition, four more fixed 0.50-inch machine guns were installed in individual external blisters, two on each side of the fuselage. Blast protection from the fuselage blister guns was achieved by using blast tubes on the gun barrels and by mounting large sheet metal plates on the fuselage sides that covered the entire blast area. The plane was appropriately named "Pappy's Folly". In the first tests, the fuselage guns were found to be too far forward for the center of gravity, and were later moved further aft.

Trials were sufficiently impressive for General Kenney to order more strafer conversions. By the end of February 1943, twelve strafers were completed by the Eagle Farms operation in Australia and assigned to the 90th Squadron.

The strafer concept proved particularly effective during the Battle of the Bismarck Sea of early March 1943. USAAF A-20s, B-17s, B-25s along with Australian Beauforts and Beaufighters took part in coordinated and repeated attacks on a Japanese convoy headed from Rabaul to reinforce their forces based at Lae, with P-38s and P-40s flying top cover. The strafer B-25s proved especially effective during this episode, attacking the convoy from nearly masthead altitude using skip-bombing techniques to attack the ships broadside, the withering fire from the eight forward-firing 0.50-inch machine guns preventing any effective return fire. Out of the original convoy of eight destroyers and eight cargo vessels that had departed Rabaul, all the transports and four of the destroyers were sunk or beached. The B-25C/D strafers achieved a 43 percent hit ratio.

Against land targets, these B-25s were rigged with bomb bay cages that contained up to 100 23-pound parachute fragmentation bombs. These bombs were released in great numbers to attack airfield dispersals and flak batteries.

The strafer concept was so successful that by September 1943, 175 B-25Cs and Ds had been converted for low-level strafing by the depot at Townsville, Australia. By that time, five squadrons had been so equipped.

Other commands soon picked up the concept. The 241st Bombardment Group based in the CBI Theatre modified a number of B-25C/D aircraft as strafers with various different nose gun arrangements. They were used with success against railways, marshaling years, highway transport and storage depots. the 41st Bombardment Group of the 7th Air Force in the central Pacific used strafers that were quite similar to those from Townsville.

The concept even reached the Mediterranean theatre of operations, where 16 B-25s were modified by the 26th Air Depot Group in Egypt with a six-gun nose. However, these planes were later returned to standard transparent-nose configuration, which indicates that the "strafer" concept was not all that widely used in the Mediterranean and European theatres.

Following the development of the B-25C/D strafers mounting eight forward-firing guns, Major Paul Gunn developed an experimental installation of three additional guns to the underside of the fuselage between the bomb bay and the forward access hatch. This idea proved to be impractical due to feed belt problems and blast effects to the adjacent structure.

The North American factory came up with the idea of installing a fuselage-mounted module containing two 0.50-inch machine with 225 rpg. The unit fit into the forward access hatch. This installation had the advantage in that servicing of guns and replenishment of ammunition could be done from inside the aircraft, but it had the disadvantage in forcing the crew to enter the aircraft from the aft hatch, then crawl over the bomb bay to get to the forward cockpit. The unit was never ordered into production.

The success of the "strafer" modifications to the B-25C/D led to the B-25G, which was a dedicated factory-built strafer that was succeeded by the more efficient B-25H. However, it was not until the advent of the solid-nosed B-25J that the power of the famous "Townsville" strafers was equalled.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2004, 09:36:44 PM by TheCage »

Offline DREDIOCK

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« Reply #44 on: August 29, 2004, 12:12:24 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by ace31st
jabo planes for noe bomb runs? no i dont think so.
 
what do you think the lancasters did when they took out the dam? they flew noe cause they didnt want to be detected. bombers are built for both purposes,  i.e b-1b lancer  does noe bomb runs.


yea but they didnt have an exterior view.
they used their bombsight.
they didnt dive bomb them
And a different type of bomb altogether

What your looking for is arcade type play in something thats supposed to be a simulation.

Bombing low alt using bombsight wouldnt ruin fun.
Force you to learn a new skill ,yes
 Make things more difficult the first few times you did it perhaps
But with some practice it would become routine

Just like real life
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty