Author Topic: Suicide diving level bombers  (Read 3080 times)

Offline Simaril

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #75 on: August 31, 2004, 05:31:02 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
Having suggested the above fixes I suppose the ultimate is to model the combined effects of AoA and G forces on internally held ordinance..........

This would require considerable work IMO but to eventually end up with a model that said

"internal ordinance will jam if attempted to be released beyond +/- # AoA"

"internal ordinance will jam if subjected to more than # positive or # negative G prior to release"


The problems will be those of adjusting these values for various ac in a manner that reproduces the actuality.

In the absence of this i would return to the need to restrict  formations to "bombers" which must release internal ordinance via F6 allowing single only "attack bombers" to use pilot release of external ordinance.



I hear what you're saying, but it would be much more effective to accept the pretty good solution of jammming the racks at all high AoA, rather than holding out for an historically correct aircraft specific value. Since our goal is to end B17 dive bombing, lets take what we can easily get.

And to make that dive bombing as hard as possible, I would argue against using G forces -- holding level at 70 degree AoA will give 1 G after a second or so. It'd be easier to use an instantaneous Vertical climb reading than to try to program a check of the highest G force in the last 5 seconds.
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Offline glenmorangie

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #76 on: August 31, 2004, 05:34:55 PM »
Actually, if you limited Tac Fighters and Bombers to Default View to release the same way you limit the bombers to Bombardier view to release and just disabled the pickle at high angles for dive bombing for aircraft other than SBD and Ju-87, that would be close.

I agree you need a tac stripe on the side canopy, like the Stukas often used to estimate dive angle.  I don't remember the sight I use, I downloaded it too long ago, but it has a mark for bombs and a mark for rockets that are pretty accurate.

The loading model should be by weight. The aircraft shoulg *really* maneuver like a pig at heavy weights and break up at the proper fail strength, not just speed.

Offline debuman

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« Reply #77 on: August 31, 2004, 06:41:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by glenmorangie

I agree you need a tac stripe on the side canopy, like the Stukas often used to estimate dive angle.  I don't remember the sight I use, I downloaded it too long ago, but it has a mark for bombs and a mark for rockets that are pretty accurate.
 


I'd be interested in seeing the sight you use.  If you could post a picture of it and explain how you use, I would appreciate it.  But, doesn't it depend on your dive angle?  Do you use the same angle each dive?  I've wished many times for some type of reference sight for dive bombing.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #78 on: August 31, 2004, 07:41:55 PM »
Well one thing would be to switch into "attack bombing mode" and have the sight only appear when you're at the "correct" angle for programmed release. Kind of like how the sight now moves when you pull G's and stuff, only it'd only show up at the right attack angle. The longer you hold at the right angle maybe the smaller the reticle gets - meaning more precise ... so a long slow dive produces a more accurate drop.

Dunno ... lots of ways to do this.

Offline debuman

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« Reply #79 on: August 31, 2004, 07:55:50 PM »
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Originally posted by DoKGonZo
Well one thing would be to switch into "attack bombing mode" and have the sight only appear when you're at the "correct" angle for programmed release. ...


How do you switch to "Attack Bombing mode"?

Offline DoKGonZo

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« Reply #80 on: August 31, 2004, 08:05:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by debuman
How do you switch to "Attack Bombing mode"?


Select bombs instead of cannons.

Offline glenmorangie

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« Reply #81 on: August 31, 2004, 09:14:58 PM »
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Originally posted by debuman
I'd be interested in seeing the sight you use.  If you could post a picture of it and explain how you use, I would appreciate it.  But, doesn't it depend on your dive angle?  Do you use the same angle each dive?  I've wished many times for some type of reference sight for dive bombing.


THe sight name is "midnight-p51D_3".  Heres the sight bmp.



It is calibrated for a 60-degree angle.  Range? Good question, but I hit better with it.  Top 0-0 bombs, bottom 0-0 rockets.

Offline debuman

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #82 on: September 01, 2004, 06:50:04 AM »
Thanks Glen,
I'll give it a try.

Offline DoKGonZo

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #83 on: September 02, 2004, 01:12:47 PM »
Is there any hope of something being done soon about this? I logged on last night and in the space of about 5 minutes saw at least a dozen B17 or Lanc divebomber flights hitting a couple fields.

If this is the way it's gonna stay, I may as well do a little practice offline in the 'Dragon and give folks something to really whine about.

Offline Midnight

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #84 on: September 02, 2004, 02:54:54 PM »
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Originally posted by Kweassa
My take on the fix:

1) internal bombload for level buffs will not be released if the plane's climb/decent rate is more than +/- 250ft per minute.

2) live bombs may be released only from the bombardier's position

3) bombs will be automatically "armed" only when the sight is calibrated

4) moving away from the bombardier's position, will "disarm" the bombs. Bombs released from other positions/views angles, will result in unarmed bombs - this way, if for any reason a buff has to dump ordnance, he will be able to do so. The bomb will not detonate.


NO WAY!!!! NO WAY!!!!

I don't fly buffs very often, but I am VERY good with the bomb site calibration routine. I most often calibrate the site 10+ miles from target and then switch back to a gunner position to watch my arse. I jump back to the bombardier's position just before getting to the target so I can drop bombs and then get back into the gunner's seat ASAP.

Dis-arming the bombs and having to recalibrate the site if the player goes to guns is total BS.

Offline Tilt

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« Reply #85 on: September 02, 2004, 02:56:36 PM »
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Originally posted by debuman
How do you switch to "Attack Bombing mode"?



In the hanger if you select the bombers only list you will note that some ac are listed as attack/bomber ........if you choose such an ac you will note that the buttons to the bottom right appear giving you the choice to use the ac to earn either attack points or bombing points.
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Offline Midnight

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« Reply #86 on: September 02, 2004, 02:59:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by glenmorangie
THe sight name is "midnight-p51D_3".  Heres the sight bmp.



It is calibrated for a 60-degree angle.  Range? Good question, but I hit better with it.  Top 0-0 bombs, bottom 0-0 rockets.


Actually, the top 0-0 is meant for rockets and the bottom 0-0 is meant for bombs. At least when I first created that one anyway. I still use that one in all JaBo capable aircraft that I fly, and a modified one without the rocket / bomb aimers for fighter only aircraft.

Heh.. anyway, nice to see my design is still in use by other players.

Offline Simaril

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #87 on: September 02, 2004, 05:14:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
NO WAY!!!! NO WAY!!!!

--- edit ------


Dis-arming the bombs and having to recalibrate the site if the player goes to guns is total BS.



Make only one change at a time, avoid trouble.

Dont allow bombs to drop if VCI > +/- 250; and disarm the payload due to "rack jamming". No other changes need to be made.
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Offline glenmorangie

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #88 on: September 02, 2004, 05:47:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Midnight
Actually, the top 0-0 is meant for rockets and the bottom 0-0 is meant for bombs. At least when I first created that one anyway. I still use that one in all JaBo capable aircraft that I fly, and a modified one without the rocket / bomb aimers for fighter only aircraft.

Heh.. anyway, nice to see my design is still in use by other players.


I wondered why I could not hit anything with rockets when I tested to see which was which...  LOL

Er.. No, it really was an attempt to deny intelligence to the enemy...

Offline Hack9

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Suicide diving level bombers
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2004, 03:55:10 PM »
Do we really want to limit the way people can play the game in the MA?  

I agree that for the sake of most player's sanity, something needs to be done about dive bombing b17's and Lancs...that is, unless it would have actually been possible to do that sort of bombing in those aircraft, however unlikely it is that someone would actually do it.  The mentality behind the practices in question here seem a bit childish and arcade like, but so it is that many of the people playing this game are children and are used to arcade games.

I see nothing wrong with skip or toss bombing if it was possible from those aircraft as wel, (and if the game would allow bombs to skip across the water.)  It is rather dis-heartening to watch as a flight or flights of low level heavies come out of nowhere at treetop level and flatten your base, or when a stream of kamikaze Ponies, Jug, 38's, 110's or any other type of plane come out to sink the CV your based on, but should we put a stop to innovation and creativity just because it's inconvenient and not "historic"?  (we shouldn't forget that kamikaze attacks ARE a historic aspect of ww2 combat, however unfortunate that may be.)

If it is true that the bombs would not drop correctly from certain angles of pitch up/down in certain planes, then that needs to be implemented in the game.  In the case of the Ju88, which has divebomb flaps, was it possible to drop bombs from the bomb-bay in a steep dive, or only externally mounted bombs? If only the external bombs can be dropped in a steep dive, then at a certain angle, the bombs in the bomb-bay should be disabled and not drop whether bomb doors are open or not.  Or allow them to drop and model an accurate result of that action...like damage to the plane or bombs hanging up or mechanisms being damaged. This same limitations should be placed on any other bomber whose payload would not release correctly from a certain angle...including the A20.

But I hesitate to say we need to FORCE people to learn to do something the "corrrect" way.  Main Arena is NOT a historical scenario and the free-for-all mentality exists, like it or not.   Bottom line is that we just can't tell people how to have their fun.  The game is based loosely on historical WW2 air combat with the added features of vehicles and ships.  Just the fact that early war and late war planes can go head to head and that planes from the same or different historical military branches or countries can go at each other should be an indicator that this is not an historical ww2 simulation.  It's a flight sim based on ww2 era equipment, but no one is or should be telling anybody else how or what to fly, when.  

I don't agree with the idea that people need to be forced into conformity with acceptable practices dictated by what was "historical" or not.  For Pete's sake, we can be killed and then re-up again. How "historical" is that?

It is frustrating that people don't appreciate the potential in the game though.  HTC and many contributing players have devoted much time and effort to provide a great ww2 based flight simulation experience.  I for one, like it to be as historical as possible, but I stop short coming up with ways of making other people stop acting silly just because it interrupts my little version of fun.

There is the MA for this free for all mentality.  The CT is supposed to give us historical match ups of aircraft and equipment for those of us who would like things to be even more historically based.  The DA is there for those who just want to get in there and fight 1 v 1 and such.  There's special events for those of us who like having well planned scenarios based on historical events and the like.  Basically it's all here.  

But we shouldn't expect anything more from the MA than accurate representations of aircraft capabilities and other combat equipment.  So if divebombing was not possible with a heavy, then lets make it so it's not possible.  But we simply shouldn't dictate what is fun and what isn't for others.  If somebody gets a kick out of sinking the CV, and the only way he knows how to do it is to crash into the thing with a Lancaster as he drops his bombs from low level, then that's the way it's gonna happen.  Make as many rules as you want and somebody will find some way around them...you can bet on it.  (look at the bad word filter on the text buffer as an example.  People are so creative in finding ways to say what they want within the rules of the buffer but with all the intent and content that the buffer seeks to filter)

That's the innovative and adaptable human being for you.  Yeah, its a pain in the butt to some of us to have to deal with.  But how boring would life be if we were all AH2 robots that did everything exactly the same way.  That would be SO predictable.  And as we all know from experience in the game...being predictable usually gets you killed.